Saturday sabbath or Sunday-does it matter?

[ken_sylvania]

I’d really value hearing how you would answer the questions you quoted. That would help me better understand your perspective, since it seems you are defending a particular view that hasn’t yet been stated directly.

Brother, I may be misreading tone over text, but it feels like we’re talking past each other. I’m trying to state my thoughts plainly, even though that opens me up to being misunderstood or critiqued. I don’t mind that vulnerability if it helps us move toward truth together. What would really help me is if you could do the same—lay out your own convictions directly so we can both be part of the same cooperative search for truth.

It would help me if:

1. You ask clarifying questions when something I say isn’t clear.
2. You let me speak for myself rather than restating my views.
3. You share your own convictions directly, even if they differ from mine.

Let’s not keep going the way we have been. It’s no fun for either of us, and I think it makes the conversation harder for others to follow as well. I’d much rather we both lean in with openness when we discuss things.

And if you don’t care to answer my questions, then I may be working too hard to answer yours.

Sir, as to request #1, I've been asking clarifying questions. For some reason it seems to make you upset.
As to #2 - first of all, you never seem to have any qualms about restating what you think other people are saying. Why should we treat you differently from how you treat others? Secondly, me parroting another person's exact words back to them is not an indication that I understand what they are saying - to the contrary it's likely an indication that I don't understand them. If I can't rephrase your views accurately I almost certainly don't understand them.

It seems to me that requests #1 and #2 are mostly incompatible with each other.

I may choose to share my understanding of Sabbath/Lord's Day/Day of Rest at some point, but I was hoping to understand what you were trying to say rather than sidetracking onto what my understanding might be.

[Bootstrap]

I may choose to share my understanding of Sabbath/Lord's Day/Day of Rest at some point, but I was hoping to understand what you were trying to say rather than sidetracking onto what my understanding might be.

Brother, I don’t mind you trying to restate what I’ve said—if it helps you understand me better, that’s fine. What would help even more is if you’d phrase it as a question: “Is this what you meant?” or “Do you think this?” Then I can answer plainly, instead of feeling like my words are being reinterpreted.

What wears me down is when I explain myself, but the discussion circles back to the same quote with your spin on it, as if I hadn’t answered. When the framing includes words like “absurd,” “funny how…,” or “for some reason it seems to make you upset,” it feels more like dismissal than understanding. I end up thinking, “That’s what I just answered, but it seems like my response wasn’t heard—why did I bother?”

I won't push you to share your convictions if you’re not ready to. But if you’d like to ask me simple, direct questions of understanding—or even try reframing what I’ve said in my latest responses and then asking, “Is this what you mean?”—I’d be glad to engage. Without the judgmental framing, I think our back-and-forth could be much clearer and more fruitful.

[ken_sylvania]

I may choose to share my understanding of Sabbath/Lord's Day/Day of Rest at some point, but I was hoping to understand what you were trying to say rather than sidetracking onto what my understanding might be.

Brother, I don’t mind you trying to restate what I’ve said—if it helps you understand me better, that’s fine. What would help even more is if you’d phrase it as a question: “Is this what you meant?” or “Do you think this?” Then I can answer plainly, instead of feeling like my words are being reinterpreted.

Occasionally people will reply to a comment by saying "You seem to be saying....x, y and z". Do you consider that acceptable, or is that the style you prefer for me to avoid?

How about if I ask "Were you meaning.... x, y and z"?
Or how about "were you meaning .....?" or "I thought you were saying ....., did I misunderstand you?"

Actually, I would really appreciate if you could point me to the things I've said in this thread where I restated your words inaccurately without it being somewhat of a question form, because I don't see where I did that.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm beating you up by continuing to circle back to the same quote, but to me it feels like either you aren't understanding my question or else you are deliberately giving answers that don't address the core of the question. My assumption was that my question wasn't clear, so I tried to rephrase and contextualize it in hopes of being understood.

[Neto]

....
As I understand it, the Sabbath was a covenant command for Israel, marked by strict rest. The Lord’s Day is about celebrating Christ’s resurrection and being renewed by the gospel. That’s why worship, fellowship, and teaching are central—it’s less about Old Testament restrictions and more about Christ’s fulfillment: a day set apart for the gospel, for God’s people, and for renewal together.

I apologize if I am butting in here, but just wanted to point out that the Sabbath standards in the Law (as given to Moses by God) was not quite "strict". There were other values placed above this one - such as caring for others who were in need (even also animals). The "not for profit" element that others have mentioned resonates with me as the one that puts heart into Sabbath observance, whether it is the 7th day, or the first day. (I do not personally have a problem with people working in positions such as health care accepting payment for work done on Sunday, or the sabbath. It is an essential service that in our world cannot in general be rendered by volunteers, like the Samaritan on the road to Jerusalem.)

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Do you see the command of Sabbath as binding on Gentiles, or do you see this more as wisdom that God built into human life (we all need rest, and community worship shapes us)?

I definitely see it as "God's wisdom built into human life." It is more a gift than a command. That is, under the old law, the "babysitter," or "schoolmaster" (however you translate Gal 3:24), gave the command of sabbath so that, when esus comes to fulfill the law, that command can become a gift we carry with us. "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. The practice of a cycle of rest was a gift created by God for us, not the other way around: that man was created in order to diligently keep the sabbath law.

On some Sundays, I may preach, go to a potluck, and have a church meeting that lasts until I also resonate with what you said about community. For me, Sundays are full—sometimes preaching, sometimes potluck and meetings. By the end of the day I’m tired, yet I still think it’s about worship, fellowship, and being shaped together. That’s also why I don’t mind if a nurse in our church takes another day for physical rest, as long as Sunday still centers them in worship.

Do you think that kind of application misses the mark, or do you see space for that in the way different churches practice The Lord's Day? Do you think The Lord's Day can legitimately be called Sabbath?

Yes, I feel much the same way you do at the end of a Sunday. Tired in a way, because the day was full of activities, but comforted, "at rest", because the activities of the day were fulfilling.

I think if I had it all my way, and I had a community that felt entirely the same way I could choose, we would take 2 days off of work (that is, work we do to sustain ourselves, earn an income). Saturday would be dedicated to rest, fellowship, etc. Sunday would be dedicated to worship and service: going out into the world and being the hands and feet of Christ, whether that is cleaning up a highway of litter, making food in a soup kitchen, teaching a community CPR class, or preaching the gospel on a street corner. And maybe having a meeting to worship and have a brother deliver a sermon.
(To be honest, I dislike the sermon-centric church service and the idea of church "services" altogether, but that is another topic)

So Saturday would be purely rest, and Sunday would be full of work, but not work for money, work for the Kingdom in the spirit of Matthew 10:7-10

And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food.

I love your point about the gospel being central—that really gets to the heart of it. For me, that’s also where I see the difference between the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Lord’s Day.

As I understand it, the Sabbath was a covenant command for Israel, marked by strict rest. The Lord’s Day is about celebrating Christ’s resurrection and being renewed by the gospel. That’s why worship, fellowship, and teaching are central—it’s less about Old Testament restrictions and more about Christ’s fulfillment: a day set apart for the gospel, for God’s people, and for renewal together.

Those activities of the Lord's Day aren't really commanded in scripture. You could infer the Apostles taught their churches how to observe the Lord's Day, but I think you might be in danger of reading into the text. The truth is, the church builds traditions, and the tradition of gathering on Sunday because that was the day of Christ's resurrection is one that we can feel fine about continuing. Like I said earlier, I don't care about valuing one day over another... I just want it to be with my Christian community, and if that means Sunday, so much the better.
And the old testament might seem like "restrictions", but in reality, they were showing a better way of freedom. Again, the "schoolmaster" providing discipline that will enable the grown believer to understand the freedom that the sabbath (and other aspects of the law) brings when fulfilled by Christ.

[Bootstrap]

Actually, I would really appreciate if you could point me to the things I've said in this thread where I restated your words inaccurately without it being somewhat of a question form, because I don't see where I did that.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm beating you up by continuing to circle back to the same quote, but to me it feels like either you aren't understanding my question or else you are deliberately giving answers that don't address the core of the question. My assumption was that my question wasn't clear, so I tried to rephrase and contextualize it in hopes of being understood.

If your intent is to ask questions so you can understand what I’m saying, I think I may be missing that—I haven’t been recognizing them as questions.

It would help me if you could phrase things more directly, like: “Do you believe ___?” or “What do you mean by ___?” That way I’ll know you’re asking me something, and I’ll be glad to answer as clearly as I can.

In this thread, I'd like to get back to discussing the topic. If you post in this thread, I'll try asking you what your question is about the topic before answering if I don't understand the question.

[Bootstrap]

....
As I understand it, the Sabbath was a covenant command for Israel, marked by strict rest. The Lord’s Day is about celebrating Christ’s resurrection and being renewed by the gospel. That’s why worship, fellowship, and teaching are central—it’s less about Old Testament restrictions and more about Christ’s fulfillment: a day set apart for the gospel, for God’s people, and for renewal together.

I apologize if I am butting in here, but just wanted to point out that the Sabbath standards in the Law (as given to Moses by God) was not quite "strict". There were other values placed above this one - such as caring for others who were in need (even also animals). The "not for profit" element that others have mentioned resonates with me as the one that puts heart into Sabbath observance, whether it is the 7th day, or the first day. (I do not personally have a problem with people working in positions such as health care accepting payment for work done on Sunday, or the sabbath. It is an essential service that in our world cannot in general be rendered by volunteers, like the Samaritan on the road to Jerusalem.)

You aren't butting in at all. I think most threads are better when more people join in. I agree with most of what you say here - after all, the priests slaughtered animals, roasted meat, and did all kinds of things that other people were not allowed to do on the Sabbath. Temple guards did not take the day off.

I think the "not for profit" principle is an application that some groups have adopted, not something taken directly from Scripture. Would you agree? I think other groups might reasonably choose different applications.

In my understanding, the Sabbath is the 7th day, not the first day. The first day is The Lord's Day. I think you are saying that the Sabbath can be any day - am I hearing you right? Can you say more about why you apply Sabbath teachings to the first day of the week?

[Bootstrap]

Those activities of the Lord's Day aren't really commanded in scripture. You could infer the Apostles taught their churches how to observe the Lord's Day, but I think you might be in danger of reading into the text. The truth is, the church builds traditions, and the tradition of gathering on Sunday because that was the day of Christ's resurrection is one that we can feel fine about continuing. Like I said earlier, I don't care about valuing one day over another... I just want it to be with my Christian community, and if that means Sunday, so much the better.
And the old testament might seem like "restrictions", but in reality, they were showing a better way of freedom. Again, the "schoolmaster" providing discipline that will enable the grown believer to understand the freedom that the sabbath (and other aspects of the law) brings when fulfilled by Christ.

I like the way you think this through, and i resonate with pretty much everything you said in your message.

You can't have wine without wineskins. You just have to know which is which. You can change the wineskins if they aren't doing their job.

[Neto]

....
As I understand it, the Sabbath was a covenant command for Israel, marked by strict rest. The Lord’s Day is about celebrating Christ’s resurrection and being renewed by the gospel. That’s why worship, fellowship, and teaching are central—it’s less about Old Testament restrictions and more about Christ’s fulfillment: a day set apart for the gospel, for God’s people, and for renewal together.

I apologize if I am butting in here, but just wanted to point out that the Sabbath standards in the Law (as given to Moses by God) was not quite "strict". There were other values placed above this one - such as caring for others who were in need (even also animals). The "not for profit" element that others have mentioned resonates with me as the one that puts heart into Sabbath observance, whether it is the 7th day, or the first day. (I do not personally have a problem with people working in positions such as health care accepting payment for work done on Sunday, or the sabbath. It is an essential service that in our world cannot in general be rendered by volunteers, like the Samaritan on the road to Jerusalem.)

You aren't butting in at all. I think most threads are better when more people join in. I agree with most of what you say here - after all, the priests slaughtered animals, roasted meat, and did all kinds of things that other people were not allowed to do on the Sabbath. Temple guards did not take the day off.

I think the "not for profit" principle is an application that some groups have adopted, not something taken directly from Scripture. Would you agree? I think other groups might reasonably choose different applications.

In my understanding, the Sabbath is the 7th day, not the first day. The first day is The Lord's Day. I think you are saying that the Sabbath can be any day - am I reading you correctly? Can you say more about why you apply Sabbath teachings to the first day of the week?

You are very likely correct in saying that the "not for profit" "stipulation" is not direct from Scripture. I should rather say "things done out of mercy or justice". That, I think, is entrenched in the Law, and something that Jesus acted upon on several occasions recorded in the Gospels.

No, I do not see Sunday as the Sabbath. I agree that Shabbat is the 7th day, and always will be. As I suggested in an earlier comment, I tend to think that the switch to Sunday is not warranted by Scripture. But I don't take issue with it, because as one other brother here has already stated, the Christian community in which I live has chosen Sunday as the day to gather. But that is also the main reason why I take lessons from Sabbath teachings in the Old Testament, and seek to live by them on Sunday, the day my family of believers has chosen. (I say "take lessons" because I do not regard it as a law for me, but an approach that fits within the grace of God, one I trust is pleasing to Him.)

[Silentreader]

I apologize if I am butting in here, but just wanted to point out that the Sabbath standards in the Law (as given to Moses by God) was not quite "strict". There were other values placed above this one - such as caring for others who were in need (even also animals). The "not for profit" element that others have mentioned resonates with me as the one that puts heart into Sabbath observance, whether it is the 7th day, or the first day. (I do not personally have a problem with people working in positions such as health care accepting payment for work done on Sunday, or the sabbath. It is an essential service that in our world cannot in general be rendered by volunteers, like the Samaritan on the road to Jerusalem.)

You aren't butting in at all. I think most threads are better when more people join in. I agree with most of what you say here - after all, the priests slaughtered animals, roasted meat, and did all kinds of things that other people were not allowed to do on the Sabbath. Temple guards did not take the day off.

I think the "not for profit" principle is an application that some groups have adopted, not something taken directly from Scripture. Would you agree? I think other groups might reasonably choose different applications.

In my understanding, the Sabbath is the 7th day, not the first day. The first day is The Lord's Day. I think you are saying that the Sabbath can be any day - am I reading you correctly? Can you say more about why you apply Sabbath teachings to the first day of the week?

You are very likely correct in saying that the "not for profit" "stipulation" is not direct from Scripture. I should rather say "things done out of mercy or justice". That, I think, is entrenched in the Law, and something that Jesus acted upon on several occasions recorded in the Gospels.

No, I do not see Sunday as the Sabbath. I agree that Shabbat is the 7th day, and always will be. As I suggested in an earlier comment, I tend to think that the switch to Sunday is not warranted by Scripture. But I don't take issue with it, because as one other brother here has already stated, the Christian community in which I live has chosen Sunday as the day to gather. But that is also the main reason why I take lessons from Sabbath teachings in the Old Testament, and seek to live by them on Sunday, the day my family of believers has chosen. (I say "take lessons" because I do not regard it as a law for me, but an approach that fits within the grace of God, one I trust is pleasing to Him.)

I think both Matthew 9:13 (ESV):

Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

and Matthew 12:7 (ESV):

And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.

give us principles that should be applied to any 'Sabbath-keeping' that we do.