Theories of Atonement

[HondurasKeiser]

The Sproul quote is confirmable.

[Neto]

Well this brings up the opposite question, why can't God simply heal us and make us all well? What's the purpose of the cross then? After all the Bible shows plenty of people being healed without someone dying to heal them.

The cross isn't so much a means of slavation, as it is the method of salvation. Hence we are to pick up our cross. It's not so much that he went to the cross so we dont have to appease an angry God...as it is he went to the cross to show us the true path to salvation and healing. This is why he is the forerunner and the first fruits of the dead.

This sounds much like what H. Wayne House calls the "Example Theory". He names the proponents as Pegalius, Socinus, and Aberlard. Supporting Scriptures given: I Peter 2:21 & I John 2:6.

[JayP]

I am thankful for this thread. Sometimes I have trouble getting to sleep, then I come here.

[HondurasKeiser]

I am thankful for this thread. Sometimes I have trouble getting to sleep, then I come here.

Is this a yawn for you?

[JayP]

FWIIW, I am fine with folks having a different view. And equally fine with some threads that go on (when expanding the topic and information) even if it does not interest me.

But this one just runs through the same ruts in the road, over and over.

[HondurasKeiser]

Apologies for boring you - do grace us with something novel.

[cmbl]

From Peter Riedemann's Confession of Faith (Rechenschaft):

We confess also that after [Jesus] had finished the Father's work for which he was sent and had declared to men the Father's name and taught them repentance and faith in God, by the considered counsel of the Father he was given over into the hand of sinners, who, after greatly dishonoring and torturing him, put him to the most disgraceful death, namely that on the cross..."For we see that it is Jesus who for a little while suffered the want of angels or of God, and through suffering and death was crowned with glory and honor, for through the grace of God he tasted death for us all." Now, since our transgression and sin so moved the Father that he laid the same upon him and for them gave him into death, we confess that our sins have crucified him. Therefore all who still continue in sin cease not to crucify and mock the Son of God. For he came to take away our sin and destroy the work of the devil. Those, however, who permit not the same to be taken from them, but remain for ever therein, mock his coming into the world and count the blood of the covenant of God and unholy thing; for this reason is his suffering and death no comfort to them but a cause of eternal judgment.

[cmbl]

More from Riedemann:

We believe in Jesus Christ: that our whole salvation and redemption is in him, that he hath stilled the Father's wrath and that through him God is reconciled with the world, as Paul saith, "God was in Christ and reconcileth the world with himself to himself, and imputeth not their sin to them." Thus through him we are reconciled to God, and there is none other name whereby we can be blessed than the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

In the first place, we believe that we have redemption in Christ, or that Christ hath redeemed us from the might and snare of the devil wherewith he held us captive; for he hath robbed the devil of his power, overwhelmed, and overcome him. And the snares of the devil, wherewith he held us captive, are the sins in which we lay bound, serving the devil by doing the same until Christ came to dwell in us by faith and through his strength and working in us weakened, quenched, killed and took away sin, that we might be without sins and live unto righteousness. This righteousness, however, he himself worketh and bringeth forth in us, since without him we can do nothing.

[Neto]

More from Riedemann:

We believe in Jesus Christ: that our whole salvation and redemption is in him, that he hath stilled the Father's wrath and that through him God is reconciled with the world, as Paul saith, "God was in Christ and reconcileth the world with himself to himself, and imputeth not their sin to them." Thus through him we are reconciled to God, and there is none other name whereby we can be blessed than the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

In the first place, we believe that we have redemption in Christ, or that Christ hath redeemed us from the might and snare of the devil wherewith he held us captive; for he hath robbed the devil of his power, overwhelmed, and overcome him. And the snares of the devil, wherewith he held us captive, are the sins in which we lay bound, serving the devil by doing the same until Christ came to dwell in us by faith and through his strength and working in us weakened, quenched, killed and took away sin, that we might be without sins and live unto righteousness. This righteousness, however, he himself worketh and bringeth forth in us, since without him we can do nothing.

I've been studying through the Old Testament for quite some time now, and I'm up into the Prophet Isaiah. Maybe it was not in my daily reading, but maybe in the SS text recently, but I read about one of the kings who, in repenting and wearing sackcloth, etc., received a message from the Lord that He had, in response to this act of repentance, "turned away His wrath". I thought of this discussion, and coming here now, I see this statement that Christ has "stilled" the Father's wrath. That doesn't have to mean that the Christ 'bore' the wrath of God, but maybe it fits with the response of God to repentance, that He in turn "turns away His wrath". Perhaps that is a good way to describe what Jesus did in his death and resurrection - The Father turned away His wrath in response. That still leaves the question of 'How?' largely unanswered, so perhaps most people will remain unsatisfied, but I find it to be the sort of statement that lets the mystery remain, while making reference to the fact that God's wrath has been 'satisfied' in some way so that He withholds judgement of the guilty. In that way it is a statement that, as a 'Biblicist', I can accept.

[barnhart]

Good observations Neto. Another detail surrounding Penal Substitutionary Atonement that troubles me is the difference between "turning away" wrath and "satisfying" wrath. I'm open to scriptural correction but I'm not sure the wrath of God for evil is satisfied, that is why he intends to isolate all of it for eternity in the lake of fire. For now it is stored up in bowls for the final judgement. I understand the wrath of God for evil in context of his righteous judgement, not as a personal emotional state.