Mennonites and War

[ken_sylvania]

Should the church actively urge victims to surrender and say nothing about perpetrators? If not, should it draw distinctions?

The church should focus on their own spiritual well being, namely forgive the perpetrators, and return good for evil. Surrender, is close to "give to him that asks" and, "if compelled to walk a mile, walk two".
Not relentlessly bark about the wicked things the enemy did, which makes forgiveness more difficult and makes hate more justified.

In practice, in the Ukraine thread, this often looks like focusing on the victim, urging surrender, and saying little about the perpetrator.

And that looks like blaming the victim.

I think there are reasons the discussion tilts the way it does, and it has nothing to do with blaming "the victim."
#1 - We all agree that the Russians were wrong to invade (at least I think we all agree on that). What is there really to talk about? Shall we just stand around and pat each other on the back for being willing to call out Russia's wrongs?
#2 - I don't remember any posts that blame Ukraine for being the victim or saying that being the victim is wrong, with the possible exception arguably being the comments speculating that Ukraine might have suffered less if they hadn't fought back. To me, that's not any more "victim blaming" than if I talk about a co-worker of mine who jumped under a steel frame when it fell instead of jumping away from it. Instead of just a smashed toe he got a horribly broken leg.
#3 - There seems to be a sense, by at least one Mennonet poster, that when it comes to responding to Russia's aggression Ukraine can do no wrong. Any suggestion that Ukrainians ought to surrender to Jesus Christ and follow his teachings is met with hostility, which is especially intriguing coming from a professing Christian. When somebody feels the need to jump on every negative comment about Ukraine and accuse the person who made it of being soft on Russia or being morally cloudy, it will certainly amplify those comments.

[R7ehr]

Of course, back then we didn't have the legal framework we have now.

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

[Soloist]

to be clear, I'm not implying anything past a strict calculus of the bottom line outcome of lives spent. Fighting against Russia likely has better outcomes even with an ultimate loss for the leadership while the poor or average citizen is worse off.

The same thing is true for Russia, they could have subverted Ukraine and likely would have succeeded without war and the outcome is markedly worse for their average citizen and the poor.

War has always been a political tool and the poor just get dragged along.

[ken_sylvania]

Of course, back then we didn't have the legal framework we have now.

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

I'm not even sure how the existence of a legal framework or the lack thereof has anything to do with the morality of war. It seems next thing to suggesting that if something is a "war crime" then it's morally unacceptable, but if a military action is not a "war crime" then it's morally acceptable.

[Bootstrap]

Of course, back then we didn't have the legal framework we have now.

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

I think the legal framework put in place after World War II resulted in one of the longest periods of relative peace in European history. It prevented wars. They put it in place because of the horrors of two World Wars.

Sadly, it is being dismantled now, and it started to crumble with the Iraq war. We seem to be going back to a Great Powers arrangement. We are seeing more wars. And I think that will continue.

Some things that Caesar does actually prevent killing and wars.

[Soloist]

Of course, back then we didn't have the legal framework we have now.

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

I think the legal framework put in place after World War II resulted in one of the longest periods of relative peace in European history. It prevented wars. They put it in place because of the horrors of two World Wars.

Sadly, it is being dismantled now, and it started to crumble with the Iraq war. We seem to be going back to a Great Powers arrangement. We are seeing more wars. And I think that will continue.

Some things that Caesar does actually prevent killing and wars.

What? seriously? do you know how many wars took place after WW2 and now? It wasn't just America with its "lets make everyone our puppet"

[Bootstrap]

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

I think the legal framework put in place after World War II resulted in one of the longest periods of relative peace in European history. It prevented wars. They put it in place because of the horrors of two World Wars.

Sadly, it is being dismantled now, and it started to crumble with the Iraq war. We seem to be going back to a Great Powers arrangement. We are seeing more wars. And I think that will continue.

Some things that Caesar does actually prevent killing and wars.

What? seriously? do you know how many wars took place after WW2 and now? It wasn't just America with its "lets make everyone our puppet"

I think so - subject for another thread when I have time. I have read and listened to things that document this.

[Soloist]

I think the legal framework put in place after World War II resulted in one of the longest periods of relative peace in European history. It prevented wars. They put it in place because of the horrors of two World Wars.

Sadly, it is being dismantled now, and it started to crumble with the Iraq war. We seem to be going back to a Great Powers arrangement. We are seeing more wars. And I think that will continue.

Some things that Caesar does actually prevent killing and wars.

What? seriously? do you know how many wars took place after WW2 and now? It wasn't just America with its "lets make everyone our puppet"

I think so - subject for another thread when I have time. I have read and listened to things that document this.

my point... you are completely wrong that it prevented war. If anything it prevented western powers from fighting western powers. We took it out on everyone else. Eastern powers basically did likewise.

[ken_sylvania]

Of course, back then we didn't have the legal framework we have now.

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

I think the legal framework put in place after World War II resulted in one of the longest periods of relative peace in European history. It prevented wars. They put it in place because of the horrors of two World Wars.

Sadly, it is being dismantled now, and it started to crumble with the Iraq war. We seem to be going back to a Great Powers arrangement. We are seeing more wars. And I think that will continue.

Some things that Caesar does actually prevent killing and wars.

Which legal framework are you referring to?

[ohio jones]

Of course, back then we didn't have the legal framework we have now.

I’m not sure that legal framework that still justifies a fundamental evil such as war fighting is all that helpful.

I think the legal framework put in place after World War II resulted in one of the longest periods of relative peace in European history. It prevented wars. They put it in place because of the horrors of two World Wars.

Sadly, it is being dismantled now, and it started to crumble with the Iraq war. We seem to be going back to a Great Powers arrangement. We are seeing more wars. And I think that will continue.

Some things that Caesar does actually prevent killing and wars.

The underlined seems to neglect the Pax Romana. You know, the one with the actual Caesar.