Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:52 pm But some of the church planters at Hiawassee have a vision of manufacturing some kinda cutting edge scientific fertilizer too. I don't think that's taken off yet.
I suppose once it does they will end up with a very healthy crop of churches.
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:44 pm
I have never been enthused by the Bruderhof. My favorite “how Christian are they?” Moment was trying to understand how flying charter planes for folks like rock stars fit into the WWJD concept.
Maybe using the Gulfstream for crop dusting would be more down to earth. Unless they are going to plough the fertilizer into the soil.
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:44 pm
I have never been enthused by the Bruderhof. My favorite “how Christian are they?” Moment was trying to understand how flying charter planes for folks like rock stars fit into the WWJD concept.
They have had (I don't know about now) abusive leadership that lives high on the hog, but I appreciate much of their service, stances, and lifestyle.
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:44 pm
I have never been enthused by the Bruderhof. My favorite “how Christian are they?” Moment was trying to understand how flying charter planes for folks like rock stars fit into the WWJD concept.
They have had (I don't know about now) abusive leadership that lives high on the hog, but I appreciate much of their service, stances, and lifestyle.
I don’t see any evidence of that but I only have a superficial knowledge of them.
0 x
Free Will Baptist <-> Anabaptist
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
cmbl wrote: ↑Sun Jan 26, 2025 5:54 pm
Here are some old books: A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life - William Law Holy Living - Jeremy Taylor The Life and Character of Gerhard Tersteegen - S. Jackson
Tersteegen - almost anything he wrote is worth reading. I have read much of his body of work that has been translated. It would be my contention that he was far more influential than “fundamentalism.”
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:44 pm
I have never been enthused by the Bruderhof. My favorite “how Christian are they?” Moment was trying to understand how flying charter planes for folks like rock stars fit into the WWJD concept.
I fully agree with you. I have had encounters with them dating to the late 70s.
You could read some of “Wayne in Maine”’s old post. He left this life, but was involved with them. Yes, the stuff with the plane is true, and per Wayne at the same time there were issues with getting proper food for the rank and file members.
Head covering is no longer required.
They did not descend from the Hutterite group, but developed independently in Europe. The Hutterite church, at last look, disfellowshiped them.
My advice-Avoid. If you want common purse, seek to join groups that have long term success. Try to join the Hutterites.
cmbl wrote: ↑Sun Jan 26, 2025 5:54 pm
Here are some old books: A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life - William Law Holy Living - Jeremy Taylor The Life and Character of Gerhard Tersteegen - S. Jackson
Tersteegen - almost anything he wrote is worth reading. I have read much of his body of work that has been translated. It would be my contention that he was far more influential than “fundamentalism.”
We had the privilege of serving lunch yesterday to some old friends, a Bruderhof family, at our home. Yes, head covering is now optional. They’ve also relaxed their rule on button down shirts for men. Their leadership said that it is really important not to criticize each others decisions to wear or to not wear the head covering. They explained that it was Paul that taught it, not Jesus. And that they hold the Sermon on the Mount very highly. And it was hard to imagine God keeping people out of heaven because of the lack of head covering. I went on their website later, and they do mention trying to live out the Sermon on the Mount on the website.
I didn’t think of it at the time, but the whole common purse subject, which is their core identifying characteristic, is not taught by Jesus either, but is instead found in Acts as an observation (not a teaching) of what those Christians did.
The Tennessee community is trying to make a business having to do with soil fertility, soil amendments, or compost equipment. Something like that.
Their communities are out growing their housing, so they need more communities. They have a new one just starting in Idaho.
We discussed the matter of the lifetime vow that they require. Which is, in order to join, one must take a lifetime vow to stay there. There really is no exit door without breaking the vow, there is no such thing as releasing someone from their vow. If someone leaves, that person is breaking their vow. Which I suppose means that person is in sin until they return. There is no such thing as transferring and joining another church as there is in many other churches. In this regard, it has the feel of a One True Church.
On the other hand, if a young person never takes the vow, and leaves as a young adult, and joins another church, they have no condemnation for that person. They seem to fully support that person so long as that person is serving God to the best of their ability outside of the community. There is no shunning. So in this way, it reminds me of the Amish, and not a One True Church at all.
Which to me, begs the question of both the Amish and the Bruderhof, if it is not a O.T.C., then why is it viewed as such a serious matter to leave the community? After all, it isn’t a O.T.C.
I thought about it later, why can leadership change a doctrine such as the head covering, and then refuse to allow anyone to leave? To not be allowed to be released from your membership vow in light of what you signed up for is now no longer in effect, seems broken. Arguably, the leadership is the one that broke the contract. Right now they don’t allow for divorce. What if they change that? Are members simply at the mercy of the leadership, and have no way to leave? I didn’t think to ask yesterday.
They seem like a genuinely sincere Christian community. I just struggle with that level of commitment, coupled with seemingly little personal input and agency.
On Monday we had the surprise of an Amish family dropping in on us. We didn’t know them, but we had a mutual friend, which is how they had our address. They too have wrestled with the ban in their community.
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:44 pm
I have never been enthused by the Bruderhof. My favorite “how Christian are they?” Moment was trying to understand how flying charter planes for folks like rock stars fit into the WWJD concept.
I fully agree with you. I have had encounters with them dating to the late 70s.
You could read some of “Wayne in Maine”’s old post. He left this life, but was involved with them. Yes, the stuff with the plane is true, and per Wayne at the same time there were issues with getting proper food for the rank and file members.
Head covering is no longer required.
They did not descend from the Hutterite group, but developed independently in Europe. The Hutterite church, at last look, disfellowshiped them.
My advice-Avoid. If you want common purse, seek to join groups that have long term success. Try to join the Hutterites.
They have sold the charter flight business years ago for what it is worth - as there were real issues. I know some of them and experience them as disciples of Jesus.
I know lots of Old Order Amish, and have talked with some of them in depth about their baptismal vow (made to the AMISH church, not directly to the Church of Jesus the Christ), but have never met any of the other folks you mention. I do see this as putting their own church above Jesus - I don't see any other way to understand it, and that is a serious doctrinal error. (I'm not saying that it is a 'fatal' - loose-your-salvation - error. I am not the one to determine that. But I also do not think we should "see how close we can get to the edge" either. Avoid all appearance or suggestion of possible heresy; that's where I end up (being a Biblicist).
Through my company’s business we did extensive business with the Bruderhof? I am sorry. Any group that ending up running an airport operation, and owning and chartering out a private jet does not get to “just sell it” and now all is good. Their view of ethics, morality and the relationship of those things to business leads me to conclude they could justify running a casino, trafficking women, or dealing drugs. They need more than to move on from just selling the plane.
The basic family unit is the cornerstone of Christian life. It is why even Jesus himself was born as a child into a human family.
A hallmark of something being “not Christianity” is how it impacts the family.
Be it a government program, a school curriculum item, or establishing a life/community structure that weakens the role of a father, mother, and their children. It does not mean every element of one of those things is wrong, but it’s a “mile marker” so to speak.
Not all is wrong with the Hutterites, but not all is good either, especially the Bruderhof group.
