What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

[JohnL]

JohnL, I think the situation you describe is real but I don't think it is CRT or Hegelian. To me that sounds like old fashioned faithlessness.

I see it as both are used as a rationalization for faithlessness. The wolves of prideful arrogance have many disguises including sheep.

Obedience to the Bible’s teachings is simple. Getting pride out of the way to live out that obedience is hard so many excuses are deployed, many in the disguise of “superior understanding” including the use of Hegelian debates on any topic including CRT.

To keep it simple-why are we laser focused on debating political fad issues that distract us from actually living out God’s Word?
Is it an addiction to debate?
Is that really easier in the context of eternity? I think we should have a laser focus on What we’ll be held accountable for on Judgment Day?

[Bootstrap]

How I see Hegelian dialectics where there’s a thesis and antithesis being chewed over in order to reach a synthesis becomes a kind of locked in culture where the need to constantly debate something becomes more important than trusting God and his Word. At some point sincere Christian disciples have to just trust God’s teachings even if they don’t understand them.

I agree that trusting God’s Word is essential, and that sometimes we have to obey even when we don’t fully understand. But I don’t think that means we should avoid wrestling with hard questions.

Isn’t Acts 15 actually a kind of thesis–antithesis–synthesis moment? Some said the Gentiles had to be circumcised. Others strongly disagreed. The church gathered, debated, prayed—and then came to a Spirit-led decision that honored the heart of the law without enforcing all of its forms.

Even Jesus, in responding to the Pharisees, often challenged their version of “obedience.” He didn’t say they were wrong to care about the law—but he pointed them to its deeper purpose: justice, mercy, and faithfulness.

So yes, we need to trust God’s teachings. But part of that trust involves going beyond black-and-white rules and learning to discern—together—what faithfulness looks like in complex situations. That’s not unfaithfulness. It’s how the early church followed the Spirit.

[Bootstrap]

To keep it simple-why are we laser focused on debating political fad issues that distract us from actually living out God’s Word?
Is it an addiction to debate?
Is that really easier in the context of eternity? I think we should have a laser focus on What we’ll be held accountable for on Judgment Day?

I agree.

Ironically, threads on the Kingdom of God tend to be short-lived on MN. We had to create a private Politics forum for people who want to debate these things in order to make room for other things here. I don't know who is in that forum, what they are saying, or how active it is, but I think more threads on the Kingdom of God would be good in the public forum.

I do think God calls us to care about some of these issues. But I don't think this thread is at all focused on that.

[JohnH]

But this is where "in the church" seems really strange to me. Do people really do this kind of analysis in the church?

Yes. Have you been paying attention to the other thread about David Platt and Faith Baptist Church?

[Bootstrap]

But this is where "in the church" seems really strange to me. Do people really do this kind of analysis in the church?

Yes. Have you been paying attention to the other thread about David Platt and Faith Baptist Church?

Ummmm … are you saying that Summit Church is into Hegel or CRT? That honestly seems unlikely to me.

Could you say more about what you mean? Are you talking about how people respond to David Platt’s decisions, or the kind of theology that’s being preached at Summit, or something else entirely? I want to make sure I’m understanding your point before I respond.

[temporal1]

To keep it simple-why are we laser focused on debating political fad issues that distract us from actually living out God’s Word?
Is it an addiction to debate?
Is that really easier in the context of eternity? I think we should have a laser focus on What we’ll be held accountable for on Judgment Day?

It is well to keep in mind, there can be an addiction to debate.
i believe (esp since WJC) there has been a broad trend toward favoring methods that are bread+butter to schools of human law, DEBATE EVERYTHING, the end justifies the means, winning is payday, etc., as well as promotion of DEBATE TEAMS in HS and college.
It’s glorified.

Yes. It’s well to keep in mind where others are coming from. Rarely scriptures alone.

To be clear, i’m not exempt from the WJC poison. i have the sense blessing to know it’s wrong and to hate it.

[JohnH]

But this is where "in the church" seems really strange to me. Do people really do this kind of analysis in the church?

Yes. Have you been paying attention to the other thread about David Platt and Faith Baptist Church?

Ummmm … are you saying that Summit Church is into Hegel or CRT? That honestly seems unlikely to me.

Could you say more about what you mean? Are you talking about how people respond to David Platt’s decisions, or the kind of theology that’s being preached at Summit, or something else entirely? I want to make sure I’m understanding your point before I respond.

In both situations, the congregation was told from the pulpit that they had been part of (and their church was) a racist “power structure”, and that they needed to repent of this.

In the case of FBC, some of the black congregants who’d been there for decades took issue with a white guy strolling into town and then applying CRT to them and telling them they’re part of a racist “power structure”.

The Bible never teaches this.

[Bootstrap]

Ummmm … are you saying that Summit Church is into Hegel or CRT? That honestly seems unlikely to me.

Could you say more about what you mean? Are you talking about how people respond to David Platt’s decisions, or the kind of theology that’s being preached at Summit, or something else entirely? I want to make sure I’m understanding your point before I respond.

In both situations, the congregation was told from the pulpit that they had been part of (and their church was) a racist “power structure”, and that they needed to repent of this.

In the case of FBC, some of the black congregants who’d been there for decades took issue with a white guy strolling into town and then applying CRT to them and telling them they’re part of a racist “power structure”.

The Bible never teaches this.

Could you please provide evidence for your claims about those sermons?

I don’t think J.D. Greear typically talks this way. He was President of the Southern Baptist Convention, and while he’s spoken about racial reconciliation, I haven’t seen him promote Critical Race Theory or accuse his church of being a “racist power structure” in the way you describe.

If there’s a specific sermon or quote you're referring to, I'd genuinely like to see it. But if we're basing our opinions on secondhand impressions or summaries passed around online, we’re in danger of slipping into gossip and hearsay—and that’s a serious problem, especially when it concerns a brother in Christ and what he teaches from the pulpit. We owe each other better than that.

[Ken]

Yes. Have you been paying attention to the other thread about David Platt and Faith Baptist Church?

Ummmm … are you saying that Summit Church is into Hegel or CRT? That honestly seems unlikely to me.

Could you say more about what you mean? Are you talking about how people respond to David Platt’s decisions, or the kind of theology that’s being preached at Summit, or something else entirely? I want to make sure I’m understanding your point before I respond.

In both situations, the congregation was told from the pulpit that they had been part of (and their church was) a racist “power structure”, and that they needed to repent of this.

In the case of FBC, some of the black congregants who’d been there for decades took issue with a white guy strolling into town and then applying CRT to them and telling them they’re part of a racist “power structure”.

The Bible never teaches this.

Here we go again. That is not an accurate recap of what was said in the film. And the filmmakers provide no evidence that any of it happened as they described either.

What we have in the film is Michael Russell Lynch, one of the conservative opponents of David Platt making the following claim which I pulled from the YouTube transcript of the film so this is word-for-word exact:

When I was walking out of the parking lot one day um a group of four black gentlemen he said Craig will you mind giving David Platt a message and I said no and this older black gentleman he put his finger in my face and he says tell David to stop it I go stop what he goes there's nothing wrong with the white people in the church he said we love this church he says and you tell him to stop it right now because he's you're dividing us and I said okay I said I I will tell him.

Well the next elders meeting I said David I said I had a couple of African-American gentlemen very devout Christians they asked me to tell you to stop it they go stop what and I said stop dividing us what really stunned me he looked at me and go and and he went back and sat down didn't say a thing to me that really had an effect on me I'm thinking he can't even give me an answer I don't know what his thought was that's what happened it felt like we were being told because we were white we were racist now I I don't believe I have a racist bone in my body

First of all, telling White people they are racist is not CRT. It is, in fact the opposite of CRT. Second of all, by Lynch's own words, that wasn't actually what David Platt said. If you read closely, what Lynch actually said was "it felt like we were being told because we were White we were racist now"

So Lynch had a "feeling" that this is what David Platt was teaching with respect to race. Was his "feeling" an accurate one? It would have been trivially easy for the filmmakers to confirm it. McClain Bible Church posts every single church service and sermon to YouTube in addition to loads of additional material from David Platt and others. It's all right here on their YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoDxft ... AutX4c833g

But no, they did not choose to do any of that. Instead of using any of the hundreds of hours of first-hand video information freely available to them, they instead chose to go with the hearsay recollections of one of David Platt's opponents that don't even relate what David Platt actually said or taught. Only the "feeling" that Lynch got from it.

So to recap:

1. What was described in the video wasn't CRT. It was apparently some mundane sermon about race or racism. But if the description was accurate then it wasn't CRT, it was the opposite of CRT because CRT isn't about telling individual PEOPLE that they are racist. It is about how institutions can have historic structural racism embedded within them even if the people within them are not racist.

2. We don't even know what David Platt actually taught or preached in the sermon in question because the filmmakers chose not to tell us. All they provided was one of David Platt's opponents recalling the hurt feelings he got from listening. And his claim that that some Black members found it divisive. Curious how they chose not to go to the actual source to give us an accurate picture.

3. None of this has anything to do with church takeovers. David Platt may be a vile and evil man who engaged in a nefarious takeover of some innocent church. Or he might not be. I don't really know or frankly care. But there is zero evidence whatsoever that CRT or race had anything to do with taking over McLain Bible Church. All we have is some 2nd hand evidence that David Platt preached some sermons on race that made some of the old guard in the church uncomfortable and hurt their feelings. Which you know, is something that sermons should sometimes do. I just looked at the McClain Bible Church's web site and the the first sermon listed is a Platt sermon titled: "Rest For Your Restless Soul (Psalm 131): Walk With Jesus." Let me guess. Is Platt using Psalm 131 as a weapon to take over McClain Bible Church too? Or is sometimes a sermon just a sermon?

[JayP]

I am literally LOL

Ken, you just keep saying “well, that is not CRT”.

Execute me, who is the King of CRT?
I asked earlier. Who provides the nihil obstat for CRT?