What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

[JohnH]

How about doing a though exercise and imagining that systemic racism never existed in this country. Going all the way back to 1618. No slavery or slave trade. African immigrants came to the US and settled in the millions like everyone else. Bought farms and businesses, got credit at banks like everyone else, were able to homestead land like everyone else, faced no discriminatory laws such as those in Oregon which prohibited Black settlement in the state. And imagine that all the tens of billions of hours African Americans spent working in slavery were instead hours spent earning wages and building wealth and passing it on to their children like everyone else in America. That Black families were not constantly torn apart, Black girls and women not turned into sex slaves. And Black men not feared and abused because they might lash out at their treatment.

Asians in America experienced basically everything negative you listed; they were not allowed to just come into America and buy farms and businesses. They generally couldn't access credit "like everyone else", and were not allowed to homestead land either. They faced serious discrimination. Many of them ended up in horrible situations like sex trafficking; in fact, Chinese women weren't allowed into the country when Chinese men came here to work on the railroads out of concern they would be used in prostitution.

So, do you have an explanation for why Asian-Americans seem to be in the top tier of outcomes in America, despite this generally negative treatment they've experienced since the start?

[Ken]

How about doing a though exercise and imagining that systemic racism never existed in this country. Going all the way back to 1618. No slavery or slave trade. African immigrants came to the US and settled in the millions like everyone else. Bought farms and businesses, got credit at banks like everyone else, were able to homestead land like everyone else, faced no discriminatory laws such as those in Oregon which prohibited Black settlement in the state. And imagine that all the tens of billions of hours African Americans spent working in slavery were instead hours spent earning wages and building wealth and passing it on to their children like everyone else in America. That Black families were not constantly torn apart, Black girls and women not turned into sex slaves. And Black men not feared and abused because they might lash out at their treatment.

Asians in America experienced basically everything negative you listed; they were not allowed to just come into America and buy farms and businesses. They generally couldn't access credit "like everyone else", and were not allowed to homestead land either. They faced serious discrimination. Many of them ended up in horrible situations like sex trafficking; in fact, Chinese women weren't allowed into the country when Chinese men came here to work on the railroads out of concern they would be used in prostitution.

So, do you have an explanation for why Asian-Americans seem to be in the top tier of outcomes in America, despite this generally negative treatment they've experienced since the start?

For many decades Asian Americans were at the bottom tier, not the top tier. The change that you cite only really emerged in the past 50 years after the Chinese and Asian exclusion acts were repealed and mass immigration from Asian countries began. The vast majority of successful Asian-American families trace their roots to immigration starting in the 1960s. So the Asian-American success story here in the US is really a story of immigration, not overcoming 19th and early 20th Century legacies of discrimination. Immigrant groups of all races and ethnicities tend to be successful because they are self-selecting. Those with the most talent, drive, and motivation tend to be those who immigrate. It is also why recent African immigrants tend to be successful.

Also, the Asian-American subpopulation in the US also has one of the biggest income disparities of any group. While many are successful, many are also poor and 1 in 10 live in poverty: https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-et ... n-poverty/

[JayP]

First, my objection to Ken’s posting was not his pov se, it was his adamant position I must use HIS definition of CRT. Does not matter what my son, a college prof has experienced, how my company’s DEI offfice defines it, or how my local state rep (a BOG proponent of CRT) defines it. No, in Ken’s world I have to ignore that reality.

The comparisons with the Asian situation is most appropriate. No, racism against Asians is NOT pre 20th century…..how about having your property and business in CA confiscated because you are of Japanese descent?

How about Harvard and other elite schools that have been proven to discriminate against Asians in the admissions process?

Again, no sensible, caring person denies the historical racism that has materialized in so many ways to disadvantage the black community. The question really is how best to address that? And victim mentality excusing is not the answer. Neither is fueling some evil reverse racism. lol what just happened in Cincinnati? How little attention and press coverage? Where are the social justice warriors crying for “justice”? Is it okay that a group of blacks beat some white folks senseless? Worse than the beat down, the circle of black people cheering them on.

And yes Ken, if you want to stand with movements like CRT I will clearly say those attitudes contributed to that event.
Because CRT does indeed encourage “reverse racism” and fuels historic problems, not improve them.

[R7ehr]

How can we “celebrate diversity” while simultaneously denying that diversity exists? Why do we laud the high points of any given culture, while denying that the low points are real? This is liberal head in sand behavior, the same as conservatives denying that discrimination has long term effects.

[R7ehr]

First, my objection to Ken’s posting was not his pooper se, it…

Pardon? Was not his what?

[JayP]

I have erased all evidence of that (and I did laugh out loud) mis type and spell check adventure!

[Ken]

First, my objection to Ken’s posting was not his pov se, it was his adamant position I must use HIS definition of CRT. Does not matter what my son, a college prof has experienced, how my company’s DEI offfice defines it, or how my local state rep (a BOG proponent of CRT) defines it. No, in Ken’s world I have to ignore that reality.

The comparisons with the Asian situation is most appropriate. No, racism against Asians is NOT pre 20th century…..how about having your property and business in CA confiscated because you are of Japanese descent?

How about Harvard and other elite schools that have been proven to discriminate against Asians in the admissions process?

Again, no sensible, caring person denies the historical racism that has materialized in so many ways to disadvantage the black community. The question really is how best to address that? And victim mentality excusing is not the answer. Neither is fueling some evil reverse racism. lol what just happened in Cincinnati? How little attention and press coverage? Where are the social justice warriors crying for “justice”? Is it okay that a group of blacks beat some white folks senseless? Worse than the beat down, the circle of black people cheering them on.

And yes Ken, if you want to stand with movements like CRT I will clearly say those attitudes contributed to that event.
Because CRT does indeed encourage “reverse racism” and fuels historic problems, not improve them.

I'm the only one here who has actually provided a definition of critical race theory. Namely that racism is not merely the product of individual bias or prejudice, but also something embedded in institutions, legal systems and policies.

What is your definition of CRT and how does it differ from mine?

I'm also not aware of any "CRT movement" in this country. I'm aware of lots of movements to address racism and racial disparities in this country. And that CRT is often a useful tool in understanding the roots of racial disparities. But it doesn't prescribe any particular policy solution let alone what you are calling reverse racism by which I assume you mean affirmative action?

As for Harvard and other elite institutions? Mostly what they do is tilt the playing field in favor of Whites and White men through legacy admissions, athletic admissions, and preferences for the wealthy. If they based admissions simply on the basis of merit as defined by grades and test scores then the biggest shift would be a big drop in White and male admissions and a rise in Asian and female admissions. Almost half of all White admits to Harvard were admitted through some type of special affirmative action type program rather than merit: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/st ... s-n1060361 and they also tilt the playing field in favor of men over women.

Are you equally outraged about this "evil affirmative action" that benefits that benefits rich White applicants and men?

[Ken]

2. Black culture may value educational achievement less than White culture. This is also a RACIST explanation but based on culture not genetics.

How is this racist?

It is racist because you are stereotyping and blaming the educational success or failure of a specific Black student on race in the form of "Black culture" rather than his or her individual efforts in the classroom.

That doesn't mean it is a false explanation for educational disparities. There is definitely truth in it. But if we lived in a colorblind society then no one would be talking about "black culture" as a negative now would they? We would only be talking about the individual choices of individual students and families.

[Ken]

How can we “celebrate diversity” while simultaneously denying that diversity exists? Why do we laud the high points of any given culture, while denying that the low points are real? This is liberal head in sand behavior, the same as conservatives denying that discrimination has long term effects.

What specifically are you referring to? What are these low points that people are denying?

For example, men commit about 90% of all violent crime in this country and more than 90% of sex crimes. Is that a low point that we should be talking about? That is a vastly larger disparity than anything to do with race or ethnicity.

[JayP]

Just so you cannot snuggly assume I capitulated, o, I do not defend the absurd admission policies of elite colleges.
But if you th8nk blacks are disadvantaged in those policies you are nuts.

I will leave it to others. I have no desire to continue this thread with you. You are locked in. Go spend more on public education, find more new sociological inventions to explain its failures in general and for minorities specifically. More failure ahead.

I did not have a problem with my daughter’s school providing two sets of books.
It is a solution to the problem. But it does not cure the underlying issues that a community that mocks education fails.
And that is not racist.

By the way, is it your opinion that in 2025 America, crime is disproportionately committed by blacks (often against blacks)?
Do you agree or disagree? And is that statement racist?