What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

[Ken]

Actually, we are all right and all wrong about CRT. That is exactly my objection.
It is not a single, “official” thing that you can attest to. Who is THE authority on exactly what CRT Is and is not.

You might not wish to be Catholic. But you can open the catechism and read EXACTLY the RCC position.
CRT is open to various interpretations and descriptions.

And If people think the struggles African Americans have with succeeding within the public education system are primarily dipped to historical racism or that the system is inherently racist you are simply a fool.

No, CRT is not whatever you want to mean. And it is not any random racial issue that you dislike.

It is a specific academic theory that has an actual meaning. If, for example in the video discussed above, people feel like they are being accused of racism then that is not actually CRT. It is, in fact, the opposite of CRT which suggests that institutions themselves can have a racist history and biased effect even if people themselves working in them are NOT racist individually.

The real world is complex and no one complicated issue has a single cause. So, for example, if we want to understand why Black students score lower than White students on some standardized test of reading or math there could be a wide variety of reasons that may interact. For example:

1. Black students may simply be genetically inferior to White students. This is the RACIST explanation.

2. Black culture may value educational achievement less than White culture. This is also a RACIST explanation but based on culture not genetics.

3. Black students may face discrimination within an individual school system that may cause them to fall behind or be less successful. This is a RACISM explanation. A particular school or teachers within the school may be showing racial bias.

4. Black families may experience racism in the wider society which causes them to be poorer on average and live in poorer neighborhoods with more crime, disadvantaged schools with fewer resources, etc. This is also a RACISM explanation but the root of the racism is in the wider society, not the individual school.

5. Black families are poorer on average than White families and test scores correlate very closely to wealth. So maybe the disparity in test scores is just the effect of poverty and not race at all. This is the OTHER FACTORS not race explanation.

6. Maybe the test in question contains language or cultural biases that disadvantage Black students. Or it is just a bad test. This is the TEST IS BIASED explanation.

7. Maybe there are environmental factors in predominantly Black communities that cause lower school performance (lead in the water, air pollution, etc.). This is an ENVIRONMENTAL explanation.

CRT is going to be primarily centered on #4 and to some extent #3. Academics who write about CRT do not claim there are no other factors at play. To the contrary. Anyone who takes a deep dive into this topic is going to conclude that there are multiple complex factors at play that interact with each other in complicated ways. But what they are also saying is that we should not JUST blame individual students for their own relative performance when there are systemic issues at play as well. And that if we want to address racial disparities in school performance we need to take a wider look at systemic issues as well as individual ones.

What it comes down to is if you want to explain and understand racial disparities in educational outcomes, you can focus on RACIST explanations for the disparities, you can focus on RACISM explanations for the disparities, or you can focus on other issues (poverty, geography, the environment) that have nothing directly to do with race.

Where do you come down? In favor of the racist explanations or the racism explanations? Or do you think something else is at play?

[JayP]

Ken, I am sorry. We probably do not disagree on the specific issues that need addressing, but to deny CRT is not based on systemic racism across so many aspects of society is absurd. Just google it and zillions of responses will demonstrate that. Frankly, institutional “expert” authorities on education are so full of crap it’s ridiculous. Education as an industry makes the industrial military complex look like pikers.

Historical racism is so far down on the list of why black kids struggle it is almost falling off the list.
Examples…my child teaught at one of the better known Catholic high schools in a black majority city. This is not public education, these kids already had the advantage that someone cared enough to spend money to get them out of public education into where they had a chance. They had to provide the kids with TWO SETS of every text book. Why? Because they would not carry a book from/to school for the mockery they would get from their neighborhood. They needed one book in school, and one at home. A community that MOCKS a kid carrying a book has issues. That is not racism. Poverty and lack of and educational setting at home ( I mean pazrents tha5 do not read to children, make books available, etc.) set the stage for failure. That is economics.

Second issue. For the past 50 years black disproportionately have more broken homes. The increase in white broken homes and matching failures by their children prove that is not racial but social.

Are you familiar with Moynihan’s famous report in the 60s? We KNOW the problems. We did then and now. But we do not LIKE the realistic causes and solutions. They do not adequately support thr political and cultural cache so we ignore reality.

Let me be clear. No one is genetically inferior. But a locked in, lather, rinse repeat set of failures will not magically suddenly succeed. CRT is way more harmful than beneficial.

Let me ask you a blunt question. Despite all the historical, and even current, unfairness in the justice system (I am conceding those realities) do you believe that the factual measurement that blacks are disproportionately in jail compared to whites is racist or a simply where the numbers fell, that currently crime is disproportionately committed by blacks?

Open kimono. I believe it is not a product of systemic racism. It is a product of disproportionate broken homes, poverty, economic issues and a community that fails them.

[PeterG]

I have not read every post in this thread, so apologies if others have made similar points.

My understanding of systemic racism is that racism of the past created a set of circumstances that continues to unequally affect people today. It's not that racists are deliberately discriminating against people today. (While this kind of racism does persist, it is not systemic racism.) The relationship of this concept to CRT is unclear to me, but I think that evidence for this type of systemic racism is abundant.

JayP, I think you are correct in identifying poverty and other economic issues as major obstacles for black Americans today. But systemic racism, as defined above, has contributed significantly to the low relative economic status of black people. They are inextricable.

For example, about 150 years ago one of my ancestors (he was white, like me) was able to acquire his own farmland. This laid a foundation for economic stability and further opportunity that I and my children have personally benefitted from tremendously. (I'd rather not go into detail, but there really are signifiant, direct, concrete benefits to me.) Black Americans of 150 years ago were much less likely to have similar opportunities; their descendants are less likely to enjoy the benefits that I and my children have. (I am not saying that black Americans had or have no opportunities or subsequent benefits, just that they were and are less likely to.)

I live in a racially-diverse, low-income neighborhood. I suspect that my household income is comparable to that of my neighbors; it may even be below the median. But I also have reason to believe that my net assets and cultural capital are above the median. Regardless of my income, I can draw on resources established by my family over a period in which many of my neighbors' families were denied the opportunities afforded to my family.

Systemic racism does not explain everything, but it is real and one significant factor among many that contribute to our society's problems.

[Ken]

Ken, I am sorry. We probably do not disagree on the specific issues that need addressing, but to deny CRT is not based on systemic racism across so many aspects of society is absurd. Just google it and zillions of responses will demonstrate that. Frankly, institutional “expert” authorities on education are so full of crap it’s ridiculous. Education as an industry makes the industrial military complex look like pikers.

Yes, CRT is a theory that examines systemic racism within institutions. My point exactly. It is not about whether individual people are themselves racist. So in the example from the film about individual people supposedly being made to feel racist because of some sermon? That might well be true, they don't bother to show the actual sermon. But it isn't CRT. And no, googling CRT won't tell you anything informative at this point because so much garbage and misinformation has been written on the topic it is impossible to sort it all out. Like this very thread where people are blaming a Southern Baptist Church takeover on CRT.

Historical racism is so far down on the list of why black kids struggle it is almost falling off the list.

Examples…my child teaught at one of the better known Catholic high schools in a black majority city. This is not public education, these kids already had the advantage that someone cared enough to spend money to get them out of public education into where they had a chance. They had to provide the kids with TWO SETS of every text book. Why? Because they would not carry a book from/to school for the mockery they would get from their neighborhood. They needed one book in school, and one at home. A community that MOCKS a kid carrying a book has issues. That is not racism. Poverty and lack of and educational setting at home ( I mean pazrents tha5 do not read to children, make books available, etc.) set the stage for failure. That is economics.

Second issue. For the past 50 years black disproportionately have more broken homes. The increase in white broken homes and matching failures by their children prove that is not racial but social.

So you are going for the racist explanations, not the racism explanations. Blame Black culture and black families. Not institutions like the schools or legacies of discrimination in wider society that allocate housing, wealth, and resources among communities, the criminal justice system, and so forth?

As always, the real world is much more complex than that. Take your issue of broken homes. Do you think employment discrimination, higher rates of unemployment, and higher rates of incarceration (for the same crimes) and the design of the social welfare network has anything to do with that? Anything at all? For example, you cited the Moynihan report. Did you realize that the Moynihan report puts some blame on the design of social welfare system of the 1960s for the breakup of the Black family? That doesn't mean the 1960s welfare program was racist by design. But rather, that institutional decisions made then had negative consequences generations later.

Let me ask you a blunt question. Despite all the historical, and even current, unfairness in the justice system (I am conceding those realities) do you believe that the factual measurement that blacks are disproportionately in jail compared to whites is racist or a simply where the numbers fell, that currently crime is disproportionately committed by blacks?

I think our legacy of discrimination in this country is so deep that it is impossible to disentangle these questions anymore. Both are true. Every individual person has agency and makes their own choices. But the playing field is also tilted. Both of those things are true.

Getting back to the issue of education. One thing we know absolutely for certain is that educational performance and outcomes are almost perfectly correlated with wealth. You can create a map of the 41,552 zip codes in this country and discover that, for example, average SAT scores by zip code correlate almost perfectly with median income. Pick any metro area in the country and the wealthiest zip codes will almost certainly have the highest average test scores. And I doubt you can find a single city anywhere in the country where poor zip codes outperform wealthy ones.

So if economic inequality in this country has any root in historic systemic discrimination (and we know that it does) then educational outcomes do as well.

That said, all of this is relative. The only rigorous international comparison of education is the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) run by the OECD. If we disaggregate the performance of American students by race and ethnicity what do we find? That White and Asian American students perform at the very top of the world, well above the educational miracle that is supposed to be Finland. And that American Black students are right there in the mix with countries like the Netherlands or Iceland or France.

Here is where American students compare to the rest of the world when we disaggregate the data by race and ethnicity. This particular graph is reading but you can look up math and science here if you wish. https://jabberwocking.com/pisa/ So are American public schools failing compared to the rest of the world? What do these data tell you? One thing they tell us is that our Asian students outperform every Asian country. Our White students outperform every White country. Our Hispanic students outperform every Hispanic country. And our Black students outperform every Black country in the world. Which is frankly not all that surprising when you consider that the US is the wealthiest major country in the world and educational outcomes are so closely correlated to wealth.

[JayP]

I abstain from continuing the conversation. I don’t think you are a bad guy. But you have ended true dialogue.
I cannot comment on how others use the term CRT, Only YOUR definition counts.

I thought I made it clear factors like economics, bad public policy, etc were major contributors and that obviously there is no inferiority or superiority to be associated with any race or group. BUT clearly you take the liberal view.

A white woman that crosses the street when a group of black teenagers is coming towards her is racist.
What is the black woman who does the same thing

[Ken]

I abstain from continuing the conversation. I don’t think you are a bad guy. But you have ended true dialogue.
I cannot comment on how others use the term CRT, Only YOUR definition counts.

I thought I made it clear factors like economics, bad public policy, etc were major contributors and that obviously there is no inferiority or superiority to be associated with any race or group. BUT clearly you take the liberal view.

A white woman that crosses the street when a group of black teenagers is coming towards her is racist.
What is the black woman who does the same thing

Words have actual meanings. And Critical Race Theory is an actual academic concept that examines systemic racism within institutions. It isn't simply anything vaguely related to race or racism writ large that conservatives want to attack. Such as some sermon that makes some individuals uncomfortable.

I take the view that both personal agency or personal choices AND history matters when it comes to societal outcomes. Whether we are talking about race, religion, economics, or anything else.

How about doing a though exercise and imagining that systemic racism never existed in this country. Going all the way back to 1618. No slavery or slave trade. African immigrants came to the US and settled in the millions like everyone else. Bought farms and businesses, got credit at banks like everyone else, were able to homestead land like everyone else, faced no discriminatory laws such as those in Oregon which prohibited Black settlement in the state. And imagine that all the tens of billions of hours African Americans spent working in slavery were instead hours spent earning wages and building wealth and passing it on to their children like everyone else in America. That Black families were not constantly torn apart, Black girls and women not turned into sex slaves. And Black men not feared and abused because they might lash out at their treatment.

And in the 20th Century imagine that Jim Crow segregation never happened. Cities north and south were never redlined. That segregation was never southern policy or national policy. That Black GIs were able to benefit from the same educational and housing subsidies that White GIs took advantage of. That Blacks could live in the same neighborhoods, attend the same schools and universities as everyone else. And received the same treatment from the criminal justice system. So a world in which people might take note that some Americans had darker skin. But it was of no more interest or note than the difference between Lutherans and Presbyterians.

If that was the America we lived in today. Would we see the same disparities in educational outcomes between Black and White children? Would the poverty rate and unemployment rates have the same racial gaps that they have today? Would we see the same disparity in crime and imprisonment rates? Would we even have segregated Black neighborhoods and segregated schools? Would we even be talking about differences in educational outcomes between Black and White children? Or would it be something like the difference between Lutherans and Presbyterians where like today it wouldn't occur to us to even ask or measure whether there are differences in educational outcomes between those two groups?

Everything I just listed above are examples of systemic racism. Does that mean an individual Black student today (or their parents) doesn't have agency and doesn't have the ability to make good choices or bad choices? Of course not. We all have agency and the ability to make our own decisions. I have had hundreds of Black students over the years and I'm as tough on them as everyone else and have the same high expectations. Perhaps more so because I know they have less margin for error. But we also live in a country in which the playing field has always been heavily tilted. And the legacy of that history continues to reverberate today in endless and complex ways.

Like William Faulkner famously wrote:

“The past is never dead. It’s not even past. All of us labor in webs spun long before we were born, webs of heredity and environment, of desire and consequence, of history and eternity.”

[JayP]

Ken, thanks for confirming my point. You did not want dialogue, you wanted soliloquy. Go to it.
I think your speech found the perfect setting. A forum on religious conversation.
It reads someth8ng like , I was a sinner, all around me are sinners, I guess we all just have to be sinners.

[Ken]

Ken, thanks for confirming my point. You did not want dialogue, you wanted soliloquy. Go to it.
I think your speech found the perfect setting. A forum on religious conversation.
It reads someth8ng like , I was a sinner, all around me are sinners, I guess we all just have to be sinners.

I thought we were having dialogue.

I think when trying to address any complicated social issue whether it be education, crime, economics, or religion I think it is important to understand both where we are coming from and where we are going. Do you disagree?

[temporal1]

Ken, thanks for confirming my point. You did not want dialogue, you wanted soliloquy. Go to it.
I think your speech found the perfect setting. A forum on religious conversation.
It reads someth8ng like , I was a sinner, all around me are sinners, I guess we all just have to be sinners.

On a widespread scale, these recent responses reflect “what happened” in the 2024 election.
After years/decades of denyng, dismissing, tone deafness, the UNorganized diverse majority responded.

On a widespread scale, the response to 2024 has been like that of a wounded wild animal. Lots of noise. Lots of fight.
Probably doing more self-harm than anything.

i admit, i’m surprised to see so much of the fight on this forum.
Over years this forum has experienced a number of changes. Another is in process. i think.
It’s dependent on who shows up and what they post.

Often in summers, many disappear for seasonal work, probably family vacations, etc.

The forum ebbs+flows.

i agree with this new member below: i look forward to reading more from him.
there are TONS of options to find everything-but conservative views on the internet.

this forum was never meant to be conservative-only.

MD was started by CM teens experimenting. they had no idea it would last a year. (i was able to read some early posts.)
teens. friends+family. i kid you not. pretty remarkable, in context. they were inviting+open. genuine. this spirit remains.

i’m glad you’re here. i appreciate your POV.

Welcome to MennoNet
Post by Maccupid » Sun Aug 03, 2025 8:19 am

Hello. I'd like to learn more about Conservative Anabaptism and communicate with like-minded people about Scripture and the faith. This is the only online community I've seen where I can communicate with a Conservative Anabaptist (outside of YouTube video comments).

Reviewing introduction posts, the majority of new members arrive with similar hopes.
i don’t recall one looking for politics, or arguments.

[JohnH]

2. Black culture may value educational achievement less than White culture. This is also a RACIST explanation but based on culture not genetics.

How is this racist?

Certain Asian groups seem to value educational achievement more than white cultural groups do, putting their children in myriads of curriculars from a very young age, hiring tutors, spending a year or more on SAT prep, and so on. I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing to do that. We can just see that Asian groups in America seem to make it a VERY high priority. Some of my Asian friends have expressed to me how their childhood and high school years were spent almost entirely revolving around studying, learning, getting good grades, and getting into the very best programs at the very best schools.

We can also see that Asians experience racism in America too just like every other group does.

So, why do black Americans have worse educational outcomes compared to Asians who have quite strikingly good outcomes? Could it be the two cultures do place different value on education? Asians who have moved to America are not necessarily rich - many started penniless with nothing. And they also faced incredible amounts of discrimination and disadvantages.

So no, I think it's a bit glib to just say it's "racist" to observe that different cultures do put different levels of value on education. In my own Mennonite culture, education is somewhat valued but nowhere near to the degree of value that upper middle class white people, or typical Asian-American groups, place on it. I don't think that's either a good or a bad thing. But we can't blame our lesser educational outcomes on "racism", now, can we?