What are your thoughts re Hegelian Dialectic & CRT in the Church?

[Bootstrap]

The guy must be really old-fashioned. I thought that OLED and QLED have mostly supplanted the use of CRT.

Yes, people who obsess about CRT are really living in the past.

In our church, I think QLED has affected both our sermons and our hymn singing.

[temporal1]

P.6 has interesting discussion: Including the actual topic’s OP, Falco

Thanks for pulling those quotes together, Temp. There’s a lot to chew on there.

That said, I think I chewed on some of this back when it was first posted, and I’m still trying to wrap my head around what people think is actually happening in churches when it comes to CRT. Could you explain it to me like I’m five? Not the theory, not the academics—just what you see happening on the ground in real church settings.

What are the specific things you’re noticing that make you say CRT is a significant influence on the church?

i haven’t said this. i’m interested in learning, i read about it. with preference to black conservative views.
This is Falco’s topic. He has studied things i haven’t. i have no idea what Falco looks like, or other details.

He suggested the KRAUSE video. i put it in this topic as a related link, P.40. it’s not easy content.
it doesn’t appear anyone has listened to or responded to the KRAUSE video.

i don’t object.

CRT has mostly faded from the public stage? Current words, Marxism, fascism, Nazis, gnostics, others, are showing up.
Anything to deny God seems to be en vogue.

[Bootstrap]

CRT has mostly faded from the public stage? Current words, Marxism, fascism, Nazis, gnostics, others, are showing up.
Anything to deny God seems to be en vogue.

Can I ask you to explain that to me like I’m five—or maybe twelve?

I get lost when emotionally charged language is mixed with big, academic-sounding words like “Marxism,” “CRT,” “fascism,” “Gnostics,” or names like “KRAUSE.” It starts to feel like a swirl of scary ideas and cultural fears, but I’m not sure what it actually means, or what it’s pointing to.

So could we slow down and make it plain? What specifically are you seeing in real churches—and which churches are we talking about?

Not what a video says might happen. Not what someone online warns could happen. But what you’ve actually seen happening in your own experience.

That would help me understand better.

[Ken]

CRT has mostly faded from the public stage? Current words, Marxism, fascism, Nazis, gnostics, others, are showing up.
Anything to deny God seems to be en vogue.

Can I ask you to explain that to me like I’m five—or maybe twelve?

I get lost when emotionally charged language is mixed with big, academic-sounding words like “Marxism,” “CRT,” “fascism,” “Gnostics,” or names like “KRAUSE.” It starts to feel like a swirl of scary ideas and cultural fears, but I’m not sure what it actually means, or what it’s pointing to.

So could we slow down and make it plain? What specifically are you seeing in real churches—and which churches are we talking about?

Not what a video says might happen. Not what someone online warns could happen. But what you’ve actually seen happening in your own experience.

That would help me understand better.

There is nothing to understand.

It is always just a vague complaint about theology that is slightly too liberal or challenging for some people's comfort level. And so they attach all manner of jargon to it rather than explaining or coming to grips with what exactly it is that makes them uncomfortable.

[temporal1]

boot:

i wrote:
.. Anything to deny God seems to be en vogue.

This is what i see all around, in airwaves, in my grdaughter’s public school experience, in parents being labeled domestic terrorists from the White House for questioning graphic materials in schools, in felony vandalism of Teslas, in public applause AND generous rewards for certain murderers, in dismissing rape+murder of others, in high level lying about a president’s ability to serve .. about redefining language, not organically, but because certain ideologues say so ..

Most are aware and unhappy. Some offer studies to identify the roots of the problems. Example: Marxism

The central root i see is denying God.

i appreciate TS, he is known for presenting complex topics in ways laypersons can understand, he was a former Marxist, i identify with much of his life experience, altho he is older, black, and well educated.

The world would say we couldn’t have anything in common. i disagree.

[Bootstrap]

The central root i see is denying God.

I agree with that. I don't think the churches are the center of that denial, though.

I don't resonate with Hegel's view of God or Marx's attack on religion, but I don't think either is influential in American churches today.

I also don’t see God reflected in the way some political figures invoke His name today, and they seem to have a much stronger influence on our churches.. Trump often uses religious language for power without showing any sense of reverence or personal holiness. Some voices on the far right twist faith into nationalism or conspiracy. Some on the left conflate Christian views of justice with extreme wokism.

Sadly, the church does get polluted by some of this, on both sides.

[Szdfan]

I'm also curious how CRT was used to take control of this congregation. Would you please say more?

Go watch the documentary or read the write ups about it. It was recently referred to in the other thread.

I read some write-ups. They made no mention of CRT whatsoever. But mostly talked about to what extent this church was affiliating or not affiliating with the Southern Baptist Convention. And it appears to mostly just be grievance airing by conservatives within that congregation who didn't want to see any change.

There was a lawsuit filed by these conservative members against David Platt's leadership which was entirely about financial mismanagement and ties to the SBC. Zero mention of CRT. And it was eventually dismissed.

So I’ve watched the first two parts of this documentary which was linked to in the other thread.

https://centerforbaptistleadership.org/ ... st-polity/

It’s interesting and there are a lot of issues to unpack, but it’s not about David Platt or CRT. It focuses on JD Greear. The only mention of anything remotely having to do with race is someone criticizing a bible study by Greear and a criticism that Greear mentioned in a sermon that he had baptized someone who was black.

Wrong documentary?

[JohnH]

From that page, look for this section:

Jon Harris did an excellent job laying this out in his recent longform essay, “Silent Takeover: How Local Churches Are Being Hijacked by the Big Eva Blob.”

Or just to straight to the documentary films:





It goes into a fair bit of detail, although the techniques were the same at all 3 of the churches they studied. People who opposed the new leader's change got described as "racist".

In the case of McLean Bible Church, David Platt and his cronies eventually replaced a congregationalist church constitution with an authoritarian board-controlled constitution. They accomplished this by stripping people of membership, sometimes just before a members' meeting, and then installing new board members.

This isn't really a liberal vs conservative dispute, either - some of the "takeovers" that have been documented are from SBC-affiliated people who want to push things in a more Reformed direction on a church that is more traditional, congregationalist Baptist and is not part of the SBC. This whole situation is largely about SBC power grabs.

[Szdfan]

From that page, look for this section:

Jon Harris did an excellent job laying this out in his recent longform essay, “Silent Takeover: How Local Churches Are Being Hijacked by the Big Eva Blob.”

Or just to straight to the documentary films:





It goes into a fair bit of detail, although the techniques were the same at all 3 of the churches they studied. People who opposed the new leader's change got described as "racist".

In the case of McLean Bible Church, David Platt and his cronies eventually replaced a congregationalist church constitution with an authoritarian board-controlled constitution. They accomplished this by stripping people of membership, sometimes just before a members' meeting, and then installing new board members.

This isn't really a liberal vs conservative dispute, either - some of the "takeovers" that have been documented are from SBC-affiliated people who want to push things in a more Reformed direction on a church that is more traditional, congregationalist Baptist and is not part of the SBC. This whole situation is largely about SBC power grabs.

The link to the Harris article was broken. Thanks

[Ken]

From that page, look for this section:

Jon Harris did an excellent job laying this out in his recent longform essay, “Silent Takeover: How Local Churches Are Being Hijacked by the Big Eva Blob.”

Or just to straight to the documentary films:

It goes into a fair bit of detail, although the techniques were the same at all 3 of the churches they studied. People who opposed the new leader's change got described as "racist".

That is not what the documentary claims at all. I watched the brief section where they discussed race and it was basically just conservatives complaining about sermons that touched on race. All the sermons are taped and online but they don't actually show any clips of David Platt accusing anyone of being a racist. Just a brief clip showing some motion related to CRT at the Southern Baptist National Convention. And then a couple of quotes from members complaining about sermons and saying things like (and I froze it so I could get the exact quote):

• "It felt like we were being told that because we were white we were racist"

Note the weasel words. "It felt like we were being told...."

In other words, she was just uncomfortable with a discussion of racism in church. This is not part of any leadership struggle. Accusations of racism weren't part of any church takeover. It was just a sermon that made her uncomfortable. Which frankly is something that sermons should do at least some of the time. Of course they don't actually show any actual David Platt sermons on race so we can't judge for ourselves what was actually said, even though they are all available.

In the case of McLean Bible Church, David Platt and his cronies eventually replaced a congregationalist church constitution with an authoritarian board-controlled constitution. They accomplished this by stripping people of membership, sometimes just before a members' meeting, and then installing new board members.

This isn't really a liberal vs conservative dispute, either - some of the "takeovers" that have been documented are from SBC-affiliated people who want to push things in a more Reformed direction on a church that is more traditional, congregationalist Baptist and is not part of the SBC. This whole situation is largely about SBC power grabs.

Maybe so. Although the notion that the SBC would use accusations of racism let alone CRT to take over another church seems pretty far fetched. Usually they are throwing out churches that are not conservative enough. Like they did with the Saddleback Church and a bunch of other churches for having women pastors.