Decline of christianity in the united states

Messages, Lectures and talks that relate, or connect to Anabapatist theology.
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Szdfan
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Szdfan »

Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:47 am
Szdfan wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:32 am
Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 9:37 am A good reminder for all of us—it's important to live up to our own standards, and it's easy to spot others' hypocrisy while overlooking our own.
That said, the "mirror" metaphor can sometimes feel like a cliché, and at times it's used to deflect from real accountability. Maybe it would carry more weight if we shared how we’re applying it to ourselves before turning it on others.
I'll go first.
Here is how I understand myself — I'm observant. I notice patterns. I notice contradiction. I care deeply about history and see how things that happen today connect with the past. I value clarity. I value honesty, even when it's hard.
Thank you for sharing so honestly and clearly—I do think this captures where you're coming from.
But I’ve noticed that threads on MN often drift in a familiar way. We start with a question like “Why is Christianity in the U.S. in decline?” and before long, we’re talking about ourselves—who’s good, who’s bad, who’s self-aware, who’s not. The original topic gets lost.
Self-reflection a good thing. But I wonder if that pattern says something about where Christianity is in this country. Maybe part of the problem is that we’ve turned inward—toward personality, performance, and division—instead of outward, toward being the Church, the hands and feet of Jesus in the world. Maybe the patterns we see in discussions here are just a mirror of the decline of Christianity in the United States.
What do you think? How does all this connect to the bigger picture of where the Church is heading—or where it’s called to be?
I responded because I felt like I was being challenged and/or invited to apply my own rhetoric to myself and I wanted to demonstrate that I try to hold myself to the same standards as I hold others. In fact, I'm a lot more critical of myself than I am of others (Grace for thee but not for me).

That being said, I do think you are naming something true. For years, I have thought that you've been trying to have conversations here that others weren't wanting to have -- conversations that are morally and theologically serious, which not only examine Scripture, but also our relationship to them. I think you're asking for conversations that are transformative and a lot of people here aren't having it. So conversations here often start on a moral or theological issue, but quickly devolve into personality fights. I think that's not necessarily due to this particular moment where the Church is headed, I think it's a deeply human impulse.

Deep conversation is threatening because it makes us uncomfortable, it forces us to examine ourselves and maybe grow and change. We resist discomfort, but faith often calls us to be uncomfortable.
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"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."

-- Isaiah 10:1-2
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Szdfan
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Szdfan »

JohnH wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:50 am
Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:47 am But I’ve noticed that threads on MN often drift in a familiar way. We start with a question like “Why is Christianity in the U.S. in decline?” and before long, we’re talking about ourselves—who’s good, who’s bad, who’s self-aware, who’s not. The original topic gets lost.
I tried to steer the discussion to what a Christian nation actually is; the conversation instead got detoured by Szdfan who accused me of promoting Christian nationalism. It’s not worthwhile to hold discussion with someone else who has already decided what you believe, and wishes to argue with that made-up caricature of a person.

I was hoping the Bible’s teachings of a Christian nation could be contrasted with the American nation-state and also the peoples who make up America. But that never happened. Instead, I got put on trial again.
John,
I know I can come across as stubborn and unrelenting. I understand you find my approach alienating and unfair. I want to assure you that I'm not trying to "trick" you into saying offensive things. I'm genuinely trying to understand your perspective and place it in context. You frequently express ideas that closely align with Christian ethno-nationalist authoritarianism, even if you don’t use that label. Regardless of your intentions, the patterns in your logic and rhetoric tend to follow that stream.

Your choice not to engage the broader implications of your arguments doesn’t mean those implications aren’t there. None of us develop our worldviews in a vacuum. There’s always influence. There’s always connection. There are always patterns. I’ve been open about how my upbringing in Germany shaped my sensitivity to historical memory and moral reckoning. I’m attuned to how rhetoric can normalize dangerous ideas and I see troubling echoes in your posts. (And again, I'm not calling you a Nazi, but I am concerned by how your arguments often limit empathy and the desire to rigidly desire who belongs).

Side note: since we're encouraging each other to reflect, I would invite you to consider what in your own biography has made you so deeply suspicious of immigrants, and why you’re so invested in gatekeeping who does or doesn’t “belong” in America.

You seem to want to come across as a logical, biblically grounded authority figure. As a result, you often present your views through selectively chosen Scripture or seemingly neutral questions. Earlier in this thread, you posted Scripture in response to the question "What is a Christian nation?" that are frequently used by Christian nationalists as justification for a theocracy. I don't think it's wrong to point that out. I've invited you to clarify what you meant and you didn't.

You're always welcome to clarify what I don't understand or misunderstand. However, "I don't know or care to know anything about Christian nationalism" isn't clarification. It's deflection.

Your perspective deserves to be laid out plainly. The danger of leaving it unexamined is that it quietly becomes normalized—especially at a time when self-identified Christian nationalists are gaining real political power. And if, in the future, there’s a moral reckoning—as I believe there will be—I think posts like yours will help answer the question: How did the Church go along with this?

So no, I’m not trying to trap you. I’m engaging morally and theologically with what you’ve written. I’m asking you to consider the implications. I’m taking you seriously.
0 x
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."

-- Isaiah 10:1-2
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Szdfan
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Szdfan »

Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:55 am I wonder if we can move away from accusations and getting personal in unhelpful ways, and maybe return to the topic.

You mentioned posting Bible verses to explore what a Christian nation could or should look like—maybe we could revisit that? I'd be interested in hearing how you see those Scriptures shaping our understanding of the Church’s role in society today.

What does it look like, in your view, for Christians to live faithfully in a nation that’s increasingly post-Christian?
So this is the post in which John posted the Scriptures --
JohnH wrote: Fri Jul 25, 2025 8:40 am
barnhart wrote: Thu Jul 24, 2025 9:29 pm
Ken wrote: Thu Jul 24, 2025 4:41 pm

1. What is your definition of a "Great Nation"?

2. What characteristics of America signify greatness?

3. Since when has Christianity ever been concerned with the "greatness" of nations?
Good questions. I can add another. What is a Christian nation?
Blessed are a people whose God is the Lord.

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.
For context, the first Scripture is Psalm 144:15 or 33:12. The second Scripture is Exodus 19:6. The last Scripture is 1 Peter 2:9.

Bootstrap, how do you see these Scriptures in a post-Christian context? Are these Scriptures applicable to the nation state, or are they about what it means to be the Church and the people of God?

How do these Scriptures relate to Ken's original questions?
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"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."

-- Isaiah 10:1-2
Bootstrap
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Bootstrap »

Szdfan wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:48 pmBootstrap, how do you see these Scriptures in a post-Christian context? Are these Scriptures applicable to the nation state, or are they about what it means to be the Church and the people of God?

How do these Scriptures relate to Ken's original questions?
Thanks for bringing it back to the Scriptures. Here are the verses JohnH quoted, in the NIV:

“Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance.” – Psalm 33:12
“You will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” – Exodus 19:6
“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” – 1 Peter 2:9

1 Peter clearly takes this out of the national setting and applies it to Christians—people from every tribe and nation, not one ethnic or political group. This is the Church, the people of God in Christ.

In the Old Testament, these verses do relate to a nation, but Israel didn’t live them out very well. Much of the Old Testament is the story of their failure to be the people God called them to be, told through the eyes of the prophets.

So what does it mean to live this out today?

Not through patriotic nationalism.
Not through ethnocentric fear of outsiders.
Not by turning Christianity into a political special interest group and hoping some politician will save us.

But by loving and serving.
By being ministers of reconciliation.
By living as the hands and feet of Jesus in a hurting world.

That’s the kind of “holy nation” I believe we’re called to be—strangers and aliens in this land, seeking first the Kingdom of God. Loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. Serving him in holiness. Loving our neighbors as ourselves.

What do you think? What does it look like to live out 1 Peter 2:9 in modern America? How do you think the confusion between Christian identity, national identity, and even political party identity is affecting the Church in America?
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by JohnH »

Szdfan wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:37 pmYou frequently express ideas that closely align with Christian ethno-nationalist authoritarianism
Please stick to "I" statements. I do no such thing and do not appreciate your insinuations. I'm not even sure what "Christian ethno-nationalist authoritarianism" is.
Your choice not to engage the broader implications of your arguments doesn’t mean those implications aren’t there.
I perceive that you are the only that keeps riding this hobby horse. If you want to discuss it with me personally, one-on-one, I've always indicated my PMs are open, you can email me, or we can have a phone call. You've consistently always declined that when I've offered. It seems to me you just want to engage in some kind of "gotcha" in public so that you can then claim I hold views that you think are offensive.
(And again, I'm not calling you a Nazi, but I am concerned by how your arguments often limit empathy and the desire to rigidly desire who belongs).
Once again, you make accusations against me that are untrue; telling me that I "limit empathy" (not true) and that "desire to rigidly desire who belongs" (also not true).
You seem to want to come across as a logical, biblically grounded authority figure.
Please stick to "I" statements. I don't think I come across as an authority figure, nor that I ever have, nor do I aspire to be one. I am just a person engaging in discussion with other laity on an Internet based message board.
As a result, you often present your views through selectively chosen Scripture or seemingly neutral questions. Earlier in this thread, you posted Scripture in response to the question "What is a Christian nation?" that are frequently used by Christian nationalists as justification for a theocracy.
Huh?

I simply picked a few Bible verses that had "nation" in them and quoted them.

Dude, what is up with your lens where everything I do is because I'm secretly a "Christian nationalist"? Are you just dying to meet one or discourse with one so that you can pick on one?
So no, I’m not trying to trap you. I’m engaging morally and theologically with what you’ve written. I’m asking you to consider the implications. I’m taking you seriously.
No, you aren't.

Let's do an experiment, Szd. I think you should know a few of my basis beliefs, including that Christians should abstain from running for political office, using force/violence, picking up arms, and so forth.

Now why don't you take that lens, and consider what, in my worldview, a "Christian nation" would be.

Just try it.
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JohnH
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by JohnH »

Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:55 am I wonder if we can move away from accusations and getting personal in unhelpful ways, and maybe return to the topic.
I think it would be great to do so.

However, it doesn't really work when I plainly quote a few Bible verses that came to mind that in English translations have the word "nation" in them...

... and then Szdfan is busy telling me I'm a "Christian nationalist", that I'm next door to being a Nazi, and so forth. It's not conducive to productive dialogue at all. I really wish he'd just stop doing it, and pause and consider that my worldview might not be the one he thinks it is.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnH wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 3:26 pm
Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:55 am I wonder if we can move away from accusations and getting personal in unhelpful ways, and maybe return to the topic.
I think it would be great to do so.

However, it doesn't really work when I plainly quote a few Bible verses that came to mind that in English translations have the word "nation" in them...

... and then Szdfan is busy telling me I'm a "Christian nationalist", that I'm next door to being a Nazi, and so forth. It's not conducive to productive dialogue at all. I really wish he'd just stop doing it, and pause and consider that my worldview might not be the one he thinks it is.
Totally get that it’s frustrating — I think both you and Szdfan are frustrated. Maybe try ignoring Szdfan for a bit and just say what you believe, focusing on the topic?

You’re responsible for your posts, and he’s responsible for his. You’re an adult. You don’t need to wait for him to change before you can speak clearly and keep things on track.
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by JohnH »

OK, here's what I believe in answer to barnhart's question about "what is a Christian nation"?
Blessed are a people whose God is the Lord.

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.
(There are more things the Bible has to say on the topic, of course.)

The first and most obvious thing is that an earthly nation-state, kingdom, political entity, and so on is not going to be the same thing as a "Christian nation".
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Bootstrap
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnH wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 3:57 pm OK, here's what I believe in answer to barnhart's question about "what is a Christian nation"?
Blessed are a people whose God is the Lord.

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.
(There are more things the Bible has to say on the topic, of course.)

The first and most obvious thing is that an earthly nation-state, kingdom, political entity, and so on is not going to be the same thing as a "Christian nation".
I agree with that. I don’t think either of us want to see the rise of a nationalistic, politicized Christianity.

Personally, I think what we need is revival — a deeply biblical, Christ-centered faith that’s compelling and life-giving. And honestly, it feels like something people are open to right now. A lot of folks are lonely, hurting, and frustrated. They’re looking for something meaningful and true.

That’s where I think the Church has something to offer. But we often seem to be missing the target. To me, that's a lot of the real decline. I want to do better.
0 x
1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
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Szdfan
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Re: Decline of christianity in the united states

Post by Szdfan »

Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 3:55 pm
JohnH wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 3:26 pm
Bootstrap wrote: Sat Jul 26, 2025 10:55 am I wonder if we can move away from accusations and getting personal in unhelpful ways, and maybe return to the topic.
I think it would be great to do so.

However, it doesn't really work when I plainly quote a few Bible verses that came to mind that in English translations have the word "nation" in them...

... and then Szdfan is busy telling me I'm a "Christian nationalist", that I'm next door to being a Nazi, and so forth. It's not conducive to productive dialogue at all. I really wish he'd just stop doing it, and pause and consider that my worldview might not be the one he thinks it is.
Totally get that it’s frustrating — I think both you and Szdfan are frustrated. Maybe try ignoring Szdfan for a bit and just say what you believe, focusing on the topic?

You’re responsible for your posts, and he’s responsible for his. You’re an adult. You don’t need to wait for him to change before you can speak clearly and keep things on track.
John’s always welcome to ignore me. That’s entirely his prerogative.
0 x
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."

-- Isaiah 10:1-2
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