Decline of christianity in the united states

[temporal1]

That’s fair and I appreciate your honesty and directness. I think we are allowed to engage him. This is a forum — it’s a conversation, not a sermon.

i remember when you were just leaving Baltmore for Colorado. So excited. i was excited with you.
you had a good experience in Baltimore. i’ve been sorry you couldn’t have stayed.

It’s kind of hard to believe, but I’ve been in Colorado for 14 years, which is the longest place I’ve lived. Baltimore was a good place and I’m always glad to go back to visit, but I suspect I might spend the rest of my life out here. The High Plains have a way to get under your skin. I was in Tennessee for a family reunion this summer and I remember feeling a sense of relief driving through the panhandle of Oklahoma.

i have good memories working in a Community College and University. Some arrive as students, then never leave.
Now my dear DIL teaches at a university. It can be a good way of life.

[JohnH]

These scriptures you are quoting, are they about the modern nation-state?

I’m especially concerned about your misapplication of 1 Peter 2:9, which is directly about the Church as a spiritual people, not a political entity. I think applying these scriptures to secular national identity corrupts Scripture.

Barnhart asked what a Christian nation is. I replied with scriptures that refer to a Christian nation.

Do you disagree with the scriptures?

No, you did not reply with scriptures that refer to a Christian nation.

You quoted Psalms and Exodus which were written many many centuries before Christianity existed.

To the extent that those Bronze Age verses refer to any existing nation it would be Israel which is not a Christian nation.

Christ has existed since before the foundations of the world.

[JohnH]

I don’t disagree with the scriptures, I disagree with your use of it.

You’re quoting verses that describe the people of God and applying them to political entities. The first two describe covenantal Old Testament Israel. The last verse describes the Christian Church. The problem is that you then apply them to modern nations like the United States. That’s not faithfulness to Scripture. That’s Christian nationalism.

1 Peter 2:9 isn’t about America. It’s about the Church.

Hey Szdfan,

Can you stop putting words in my mouth? I literally quoted 3 scriptures. That was all.

I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m responding to the theological implications to the verses you quoted in response to the question, “What is a Christian nation?”

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Barnhart posed the question, “What is a Christian nation”?

I responded with Bible verses that speak to what a nation of God’s people is.

I made no theological implication.

Szd, I think there is a set of opinions out there you really dislike. I think you think I hold those opinions, and so you attack me whenever I say almost anything. I wish you’d find someone or something else to levy your attacks against.

[Bootstrap]

– Meanwhile, according to a 2019 study by Lifeway Research (remember, this was before Covid), church closures are outpacing openings, with a net loss of 1,500 churches per year.

That's the real issue.

We're doing a terrible job of spreading the Gospel. Not because they would reject Jesus, but because they do not see Jesus in us. The world can see that "creation is groaning and longing to be released". They can't see that we have any answers for that.

And FWIW, I don't think the food fight in this thread would convince many people that we have those answers.

Can we do better here?

[barnhart]

– Meanwhile, according to a 2019 study by Lifeway Research (remember, this was before Covid), church closures are outpacing openings, with a net loss of 1,500 churches per year.

That's the real issue.

We're doing a terrible job of spreading the Gospel...

I agree with this although I don't think COVID was an issue. It only revealed the fact that many churches were shells in operation but lacking life changing faith.

[Ken]

Barnhart asked what a Christian nation is. I replied with scriptures that refer to a Christian nation.

Do you disagree with the scriptures?

No, you did not reply with scriptures that refer to a Christian nation.

You quoted Psalms and Exodus which were written many many centuries before Christianity existed.

To the extent that those Bronze Age verses refer to any existing nation it would be Israel which is not a Christian nation.

Christ has existed since before the foundations of the world.

The versus you quoted from Psalms and Exodus date to a time when the Israelites communicated with, and honored God through making burnt offerings at the tabernacle. According to Leviticus, The Israelites brought a bull, sheep, or goat, a male with no defect, and killed it at the entrance to the tabernacle. The animal’s blood was drained, and the priest sprinkled blood around the altar. The animal was skinned and cut it into pieces, the intestines and legs washed, and the priest burned the pieces over the altar all night. The priest received the skin as a fee for his help. A turtledove or pigeon could also be sacrificed, although they weren’t skinned.

Is that what Christian nations do today? Do we follow the dictates of Leviticus? Do we slaughter cattle on the steps of our churches, sprinkle animal blood about the place and burn the carcasses of bulls, sheep, and goats on our church altars?

So I would suggest that Bible verses from that time period don't really tell us how nations and governments are to behave today. Or give us any definition of what a Christian nation looks like.

[R7ehr]

1. What is your definition of a "Great Nation"?

2. What characteristics of America signify greatness?

3. Since when has Christianity ever been concerned with the "greatness" of nations?

Good questions. I can add another. What is a Christian nation?

Ill add two more. What time period in American History was great? Why was that a great period? And who was it great for?

The post WW2 era from 1950 to 1965 were great. Great because the US emerged as a global superpower, the dollar was dominant. The strong economy and low unemployment, led to a large middle class with widespread educational opportunities. America was the factory of the world. Health care improvements. A lot of affordability for the middle class regarding health care, education, and housing compared to today. Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act reflected a growing shift in the way minorities were viewed.

The 1990’s were pretty grand as well. Stable affordability. A decade of peace, and prosperity, kicked off by the fall of the Soviet Union, and the swift and lopsided Gulf War victory. The tech revolution was happening. Y2K turned out to be nothing more than conspiracy fodder. America stood alone on the world stage as the leader of freedom, economics, military, technology, and entertainment. Even the dot com bust in 2000 was mostly relegated to tech companies, tech workers, and part of the financial sector. Not much impact for the average American. No bank failures, no massive wave of foreclosures. Ended with 9/11 and got worse with the Great Recession.

The fact that we can point to something bad in these times, does not negate that these time still meet the somewhat pliable definition of greatness. Even if there is an issue where these times represent the worst of some aspect, doesn’t change that. Because all of that is understood. When a person talks about going on a great camping trip, they aren’t denying the presence of mosquitoes, or that traffic was terrible on the way there.

How America and its politicians defines “Greatness” and the examples above, are different than Jesus Biblical teachings of greatness in Matthew 18, 20 and Luke 22 and Mark 10.

[Bootstrap]

– Meanwhile, according to a 2019 study by Lifeway Research (remember, this was before Covid), church closures are outpacing openings, with a net loss of 1,500 churches per year.

That's the real issue.

We're doing a terrible job of spreading the Gospel...

I agree with this although I don't think COVID was an issue. It only revealed the fact that many churches were shells in operation but lacking life changing faith.

I think COVID did more than just reveal weaknesses. It actively undermined trust in most institutions, isolated people from each other, and pushed many into spending more time online and less time in embodied community. People aren’t just leaving church, they're withdrawing from most in-person spaces. They’re online instead.

If we want to spread the Gospel now, we have to take seriously how disoriented, lonely, and suspicious many people have become. They’re not just skeptical of church, they’re skeptical of any form of community.

Ironically, the Kingdom of God is exactly what they need—a place of belonging, healing, and purpose. Relationships that mean more than online interactions.

[Szdfan]

Hey Szdfan,

Can you stop putting words in my mouth? I literally quoted 3 scriptures. That was all.

I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m responding to the theological implications to the verses you quoted in response to the question, “What is a Christian nation?”

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Barnhart posed the question, “What is a Christian nation”?

I responded with Bible verses that speak to what a nation of God’s people is.

I made no theological implication.

Szd, I think there is a set of opinions out there you really dislike. I think you think I hold those opinions, and so you attack me whenever I say almost anything. I wish you’d find someone or something else to levy your attacks against.

I think that the risk you run when you post scriptures without context or commentary in response to the question, “What is a Christian nation?” that people are going to interpret it as a theological argument. It’s a loaded response to a loaded question.

You’re welcome to explain what you meant by posting those scriptures. At this point, you’ve spent more time complaining that I misunderstood your post than clarifying what you actually meant.

[Ken]

Good questions. I can add another. What is a Christian nation?

Ill add two more. What time period in American History was great? Why was that a great period? And who was it great for?

The post WW2 era from 1950 to 1965 were great. Great because the US emerged as a global superpower, the dollar was dominant. The strong economy and low unemployment, led to a large middle class with widespread educational opportunities. America was the factory of the world. Health care improvements. A lot of affordability for the middle class regarding health care, education, and housing compared to today. Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act reflected a growing shift in the way minorities were viewed.

And how did we pay for that prosperity without deficit spending? How did we build highways, dams, schools and universities, put men on the moon, lead the world in science, and subsidize this prosperity?

Hint, the top marginal tax rate on the wealthiest Americans was 91% during most of that time period. And the tax code contained far fewer opportunities for tax evasion compared to today. Nothing is for free. And prosperity doesn't come from belief despite the teachings of prosperity gospel promoters. Some of the poorest countries on the planet are very devout.