Anabaptist Perspectives Episode - What Happened to Anabaptists who stayed in Europe

[Ken]

I personally don't see the Biblical mandate to form large communal colonies when there is no evidence (to my knowledge) that this sort of lifestyle was practiced Biblically.

If one can make it work, then fine. But it takes a lot of actual laws and regulations and systems of leadership to make it work long-term. And living in a communal colony would give others WAY more control over my life than I would ever be comfortable giving up.

It seems to me that most New Testament Christians were just ordinary people living in ordinary towns and cities and carrying on ordinary professions while doing their best to live Christian lifestyles and be members of a church.

[JohnH]

I guess I should ask what "self rule" means. Because, for example, someone who is a constant tax cheat and otherwise disobeys the government for no reason would eventually be disciplined in my church. Likewise, we are sort of expected to work out our own disputations instead of running to courts of law.

If the government expected us to engage in self rule in those matters, I'm not quite sure I'd see what the problem is.

[JohnH]

I personally don't see the Biblical mandate to form large communal colonies when there is no evidence (to my knowledge) that this sort of lifestyle was practiced Biblically.

Hutterites formed colonies mostly out of need - they were too poor to survive any other way so they ended up living together to share resources.

Russian Mennonites formed colonies because they went and settled places that were uninhabited.

[Ken]

I guess I should ask what "self rule" means. Because, for example, someone who is a constant tax cheat and otherwise disobeys the government for no reason would eventually be disciplined in my church. Likewise, we are sort of expected to work out our own disputations instead of running to courts of law.

If the government expected us to engage in self rule in those matters, I'm not quite sure I'd see what the problem is.

What happens when people living in a self-sufficient religious community are not interested in subjecting themselves to religious law or church discipline? Not everyone who grows up in a community is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its religious beliefs?

[JohnH]

I guess I should ask what "self rule" means. Because, for example, someone who is a constant tax cheat and otherwise disobeys the government for no reason would eventually be disciplined in my church. Likewise, we are sort of expected to work out our own disputations instead of running to courts of law.

If the government expected us to engage in self rule in those matters, I'm not quite sure I'd see what the problem is.

What happens when people living in a self-sufficient religious community are not interested in subjecting themselves to religious law or church discipline? Not everyone who grows up in a community is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its religious beliefs?

Presumably they could simply be subject to the surrounding government and go live like other citizens of that country do.

[ken_sylvania]

I guess I should ask what "self rule" means. Because, for example, someone who is a constant tax cheat and otherwise disobeys the government for no reason would eventually be disciplined in my church. Likewise, we are sort of expected to work out our own disputations instead of running to courts of law.

If the government expected us to engage in self rule in those matters, I'm not quite sure I'd see what the problem is.

What happens when people living in a self-sufficient religious community are not interested in subjecting themselves to religious law or church discipline? Not everyone who grows up in a community is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its religious beliefs?

That's interesting to consider. One way of thinking about that question would be: What happens when people living in a state or country are not interested in subjecting themselves to the laws or discipline of that country. Not everyone who grows up in a community, state or country is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its beliefs about what should or should not be legal?

[Neto]

I guess I should ask what "self rule" means. Because, for example, someone who is a constant tax cheat and otherwise disobeys the government for no reason would eventually be disciplined in my church. Likewise, we are sort of expected to work out our own disputations instead of running to courts of law.

If the government expected us to engage in self rule in those matters, I'm not quite sure I'd see what the problem is.

What happens when people living in a self-sufficient religious community are not interested in subjecting themselves to religious law or church discipline? Not everyone who grows up in a community is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its religious beliefs?

That's interesting to consider. One way of thinking about that question would be: What happens when people living in a state or country are not interested in subjecting themselves to the laws or discipline of that country. Not everyone who grows up in a community, state or country is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its beliefs about what should or should not be legal?

I would point to the fundamental difference between 'self-rule" in a religious colony versus in a secular society. The colonies in the Russian Empire were specifically religious. There were Jewish colonies in the same area where the Mennonites were settled, as well as Lutheran colonies. Each of these were expected by the government to be insular, the only exception known to me being the assignment of some Mennonite farmers to live in the Jewish colonies, and to teach them how to farm. When the MB church formed, there were attempts by the "Big Church" to force them out of the colonies, and to cause them to loose their status as Mennonites. (Meaning that they would no longer fall under the rules of the priveligio as established by the Czar when they immigrated into the Russian Empire. Such as, they would be expelled from the Mennonite colonies, and be obligated to serve in the Russian military, just as any other Russian citizen.) One of the men who was involved in the formation of the MB group lived outside the colony for extended periods of time - months at a time - befriending and making appeals to Russian government officials. The leadership of the Big Church had at first attempted to prevent him from doing this by denying him a passport, which was necessary for any colony member to leave the confines of the colony. (There are documents of Russian official response to these things, scolding the Mennonite colony leaders for not 'getting along'.)

In a congregation where there is value placed on a "pure church" members who do not "share its values and beliefs" (in that case, Biblical doctrines) ARE expelled (or at least they should be, according to the Scriptures). In a secular state, you do not need to share all of the values of that country - you just need to obey its laws - there is no requirement or expectation that the citizens will share all of the beliefs of the political leaders (couldn't keep up with the constant changes anyway ).

[Ken]

I guess I should ask what "self rule" means. Because, for example, someone who is a constant tax cheat and otherwise disobeys the government for no reason would eventually be disciplined in my church. Likewise, we are sort of expected to work out our own disputations instead of running to courts of law.

If the government expected us to engage in self rule in those matters, I'm not quite sure I'd see what the problem is.

What happens when people living in a self-sufficient religious community are not interested in subjecting themselves to religious law or church discipline? Not everyone who grows up in a community is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its religious beliefs?

That's interesting to consider. One way of thinking about that question would be: What happens when people living in a state or country are not interested in subjecting themselves to the laws or discipline of that country. Not everyone who grows up in a community, state or country is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its beliefs about what should or should not be legal?

Minority rights are a feature of secular civilian law.

They are not generally a feature of religious groups.

[ken_sylvania]

What happens when people living in a self-sufficient religious community are not interested in subjecting themselves to religious law or church discipline? Not everyone who grows up in a community is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its religious beliefs?

That's interesting to consider. One way of thinking about that question would be: What happens when people living in a state or country are not interested in subjecting themselves to the laws or discipline of that country. Not everyone who grows up in a community, state or country is necessarily going to share in all of its values. Are they expelled? Do they have no form of citizenship rights to live in the community of their birth even if they don't share in its beliefs about what should or should not be legal?

Minority rights are a feature of secular civilian law.

They are not generally a feature of religious groups.

Except that even secular civilian law doesn't grant minority rights to those who don't subject themselves to the laws or discipline of the state or country where they live.

[barnhart]

Interesting history Neto, thanks. That fills some knowledge gaps for me.