Rome, Religion, and Power

[barnhart]

...So the question isn’t whether the church is political, it’s whether we are practicing politics of power or politics of witness.

Exactly. And the two are polar, to embrace either you must loosen your grip on the other.

[JohnH]

No. I’m simply arguing that Jesus in AD 30 or so during the reign of Augustus and Tiberius was no threat to the Roman Empire and was not seen as such.

How Christianity and the church developed over the next two millennia doesn’t change that fact.

I’m also skeptical of the political weight of Christian witness to the state outside of the normal avenues of political power. Although that’s a different subject from the crucification. I’m not sure where a-political Christian witness has ever accomplished much in the face of a determined state. Not today when it comes to things like US policy in Gaza or immigration. And not any time in the past that I can think of. Perhaps you have other examples in mind?

I agree with this. Mixture of politics and Christian witness seems to more often result in the political changing Christians rather than the other way around. The few examples we do have like prohibition are not very inspiring.

[JohnH]

I really agree with this. That said, why not say Jesus wields political power, he is a King of a polity, however, the tools and levers of his rule and reign, and his conquest, are not those the worldly kingdoms, violence and coercion, but the way of the cross. But his polity is real, and conquering, and is present on earth...and stands as a threat the the worldly kingdoms, like Rome, the USA, etc...

Is there a name for your view? Christian Anarchism, perhaps?

[joshuabgood]

I really agree with this. That said, why not say Jesus wields political power, he is a King of a polity, however, the tools and levers of his rule and reign, and his conquest, are not those the worldly kingdoms, violence and coercion, but the way of the cross. But his polity is real, and conquering, and is present on earth...and stands as a threat the the worldly kingdoms, like Rome, the USA, etc...

Is there a name for your view? Christian Anarchism, perhaps?

It's a fair question. I don't think Christian Anarchism captures it...because I am in favor of a government, the government is on his shoulders, and we do have a King who rules and reigns.

I like the term Kingdom Christian...though I realize that also doesn't have a very clearly agreed upon definition.

[Ken]

No. I’m simply arguing that Jesus in AD 30 or so during the reign of Augustus and Tiberius was no threat to the Roman Empire and was not seen as such.

How Christianity and the church developed over the next two millennia doesn’t change that fact.

I’m also skeptical of the political weight of Christian witness to the state outside of the normal avenues of political power. Although that’s a different subject from the crucification. I’m not sure where a-political Christian witness has ever accomplished much in the face of a determined state. Not today when it comes to things like US policy in Gaza or immigration. And not any time in the past that I can think of. Perhaps you have other examples in mind?

I agree with this. Mixture of politics and Christian witness seems to more often result in the political changing Christians rather than the other way around. The few examples we do have like prohibition are not very inspiring.

And prohibition was not a Christian witness to the state from the outside. It was an incredibly broad organized political movement in Congress and statehouses across the country that just happened to have been lead by middle class Christian women for the most part. And aided and abetted by corporate interests who wanted to see their working class immigrant labor force drink less and consequently be more productive. So there was a nativist anti-immigrant thread as well.

[JohnH]

And aided and abetted by corporate interests who wanted to see their working class immigrant labor force drink less and consequently be more productive. So there was a nativist anti-immigrant thread as well.

I'm not sure how it's nativist or anti-immigrant to want your labor force who happen to be immigrants to engage in less drunkenness.