Anabaptist Perspectives Episode - What Happened to Anabaptists who stayed in Europe

[mike]

I listened to this today while driving and thought it was interesting. Yuri Kravets says that Mennonites in Ukraine had an impact on the formation of some of the Russian Christians who made up the 'secret church' during the Soviet days, which is his own background. Worth a listen.

What Happened to the Anabaptists that Didn’t Leave Europe?

Yuriy Kravets tells the story of his interactions with Anabaptists in different parts of the world and discusses portions of global Anabaptist history. Why did Anabaptists scatter to begin with? What happened to those who fled persecution to the East, instead of traveling west to America? What can we learn from the global Anabaptist community today?

https://anabaptistperspectives.org/epis ... ve-europe/

[barnhart]

One detail that caught my ear was his suggestion that the offer of Catherine to the Anabaptists included the concept self government. How consistent is this with the radical separation of church and state. How much of a two kingdom theology can you have if the church accepts the role of self government?

I am particularly interested in Neto's thoughts.

[JohnH]

I listened to this today while driving and thought it was interesting. Yuri Kravets says that Mennonites in Ukraine had an impact on the formation of some of the Russian Christians who made up the 'secret church' during the Soviet days, which is his own background. Worth a listen.

What Happened to the Anabaptists that Didn’t Leave Europe?

Yuriy Kravets tells the story of his interactions with Anabaptists in different parts of the world and discusses portions of global Anabaptist history. Why did Anabaptists scatter to begin with? What happened to those who fled persecution to the East, instead of traveling west to America? What can we learn from the global Anabaptist community today?

https://anabaptistperspectives.org/epis ... ve-europe/

I used to attend church when I lived in Australia with a family from Kazakhstan who had this exact background.

There is another large community that stayed in Europe, the Apostolic Christian Church / Nazarean, which I noted he didn't give a lot of attention to. They are one of the most interesting to me since so many of them stayed in Europe, some of them through the entire tenure of Communism. They also seem to be the only Anabaptist group that is remotely successful in evangelism in western Europe or settling churches there.

[mike]

One detail that caught my ear was his suggestion that the offer of Catherine to the Anabaptists included the concept self government. How consistent is this with the radical separation of church and state. How much of a two kingdom theology can you have if the church accepts the role of self government?

I am particularly interested in Neto's thoughts.

Same here. I'd like to hear from him. From the little I have heard, the need/choice for Russian Mennonites to essentially supply their own civil government didn't really end well.

I wonder, though, what they could have done differently.

[JohnH]

One detail that caught my ear was his suggestion that the offer of Catherine to the Anabaptists included the concept self government. How consistent is this with the radical separation of church and state. How much of a two kingdom theology can you have if the church accepts the role of self government?

I am particularly interested in Neto's thoughts.

Same here. I'd like to hear from him. From the little I have heard, the need/choice for Russian Mennonites to essentially supply their own civil government didn't really end well.

I wonder, though, what they could have done differently.

It does seem reasonable for a government to ask Christians to please resolve disputes among themselves.

[Ken]

One detail that caught my ear was his suggestion that the offer of Catherine to the Anabaptists included the concept self government. How consistent is this with the radical separation of church and state. How much of a two kingdom theology can you have if the church accepts the role of self government?

I am particularly interested in Neto's thoughts.

I think the divergent experiences of Mennonites who migrated west to the US versus east to the Russian Empire is mostly due to the opposite forms of government: Secular Constitutional democracy versus autocratic monarchy. A two kingdom theology is fine, but only really works when the worldly kingdom operates under strict constitutional limits and respects the private sphere.

That is one reason I think religious conservatives who are enamored with Russia and moving there today in 2025 are seriously misguided and may well find their long term future as tenuous as that of the Mennonites who migrated to Ukraine over a century ago.

[barnhart]

... A two kingdom theology is fine, but only really works when the worldly kingdom operates under strict constitutional limits and respects the private sphere.

In our sister church in Queens there is a group from Chinese immigrants from the underground church. I recently talked to one whose grandfather was a pastor taken by the government and never seen again when she was a young child. She grew up fleeing from village to village in rural areas to stay ahead of authorities. These people understand the kingdom of Jesus and the kingdoms of this world without favorable government. Two kingdom theology can grow anywhere but it certainly is a better experience under liberal government that respects human dignity and freedom.

[Ken]

... A two kingdom theology is fine, but only really works when the worldly kingdom operates under strict constitutional limits and respects the private sphere.

In our sister church in Queens there is a group from Chinese immigrants from the underground church. I recently talked to one whose grandfather was a pastor taken by the government and never seen again when she was a young child. She grew up fleeing from village to village in rural areas to stay ahead of authorities. These people understand the kingdom of Jesus and the kingdoms of this world without favorable government. Two kingdom theology can grow anywhere but it certainly is a better experience under liberal government that respects human dignity and freedom.

There are really two different issues our questions here.

The first is whether or not Christianity itself can be snuffed out by oppressive regimes. Clearly not easily as the Romans found out during the early centuries of Christianity and atheist regimes like Stalinist USSR and Maoist China found out. Christianity has a way of surviving through the most brutal repression. As does Judaism for that matter.

The second question is under what conditions can a successful Christian community establish itself and thrive over many multiple generations and even centuries. The answer to that question is a a secular Constitutional republic with limited government and robust individual rights as we have in Canada and the US. When religion and the state are blended as was the case in Europe up until the 20th Century, independent religious groups like the Mennonites did not tend to thrive, especially across multiple generations. And under oppressive regimes that did not respect individual rights such as was the case in Ukraine in the early 20th Century under both the USSR and Nazis that clearly was not the case either.

So while plain Anabaptists may be agnostic about government and shun participation in it. The type of government they actually live under matters immensely. That is why, for example, I’m skeptical of the long-term viability of projects like the new Mennonite settlements in Angola. They may find the conditions favorable today in 2025 with whatever deals they have cut with the government and mining authorities that own much of that land. But the political history of subsaharan Africa does not inspire confidence in the stability of governments across generations. The oldest non-interrupted democratic government in Africa is Botswana and it has only been there since 1966. In a country like Angola can you really be sure that some future government is going to respect the property rights, civil rights, and religious rights of your children or grandchildren? I would not be very confident of that. By contrast, even Mexico’s constitutional government is over 100 years old.

[Soloist]

... A two kingdom theology is fine, but only really works when the worldly kingdom operates under strict constitutional limits and respects the private sphere.

In our sister church in Queens there is a group from Chinese immigrants from the underground church. I recently talked to one whose grandfather was a pastor taken by the government and never seen again when she was a young child. She grew up fleeing from village to village in rural areas to stay ahead of authorities. These people understand the kingdom of Jesus and the kingdoms of this world without favorable government. Two kingdom theology can grow anywhere but it certainly is a better experience under liberal government that respects human dignity and freedom.

I would hazard a guess that they have a much better focus on material possessions then those Christians under a liberal government.

[Ken]

... A two kingdom theology is fine, but only really works when the worldly kingdom operates under strict constitutional limits and respects the private sphere.

In our sister church in Queens there is a group from Chinese immigrants from the underground church. I recently talked to one whose grandfather was a pastor taken by the government and never seen again when she was a young child. She grew up fleeing from village to village in rural areas to stay ahead of authorities. These people understand the kingdom of Jesus and the kingdoms of this world without favorable government. Two kingdom theology can grow anywhere but it certainly is a better experience under liberal government that respects human dignity and freedom.

I would hazard a guess that they have a much better focus on material possessions then those Christians under a liberal government.

By “much better focus” do you mean they are much less CONCERNED about material possessions than Christians in the west?