ICE targets Church Leaders and Christians Fleeing Persecution

[Szdfan]

I understand your point, but to me this feels like quite a narrow, legalistic perspective. The fact that they passed through Mexico doesn’t change that they were fleeing persecution in Iran—and it also doesn’t change that they were suddenly swept up by paramilitary ICE agents with masks, no identification, and no warning. That seems like something that deserves compassion and serious concern, regardless of the legal technicalities.

The fact that ICE swept them up has zip all to do with the fact they are "Christians fleeing persecution", though. Do you want to talk about immigration issues and policy in general, or do you want to talk about Christians fleeing persecution?

At what point do you believe that enforcing the law becomes cruelty? Are there such things as unjust laws?

[JohnH]

The fact that ICE swept them up has zip all to do with the fact they are "Christians fleeing persecution", though. Do you want to talk about immigration issues and policy in general, or do you want to talk about Christians fleeing persecution?

At what point do you believe that enforcing the law becomes cruelty? Are there such things as unjust laws?

Bootstrap kept requesting that this thread be about specifically Christians fleeing persecution, not about general politics / debate about immigration policy.

But, to answer your question, unjust laws certainly exist, and the more laws deviate from God's perfect law, as taught to us in the Bible, the more unjust the laws become.

As far as "enforcing the law becomes cruelty", I'm not sure how to answer that. I think that laws dealing with a drunk driver should be enforced, including impounding the vehicle in question and taking the drunk driver off to the jail to dry out for the night before being released. Sometimes, a drunk driver has children with them, and then those children have to be placed into an emergency situation, with the family temporarily separated. This might indeed seem cruel and it very well may be. But I also think it's not good to just let drunk drivers go because doing all of the above would seem "cruel". To a person who doesn't have a lot of spare money and needs their car to get to/from work, pick up their kids at school, and so forth, having their car impounded and facing thousands of dollars in fees to get it back may very well seem cruel.

[Szdfan]

The fact that ICE swept them up has zip all to do with the fact they are "Christians fleeing persecution", though. Do you want to talk about immigration issues and policy in general, or do you want to talk about Christians fleeing persecution?

At what point do you believe that enforcing the law becomes cruelty? Are there such things as unjust laws?

Bootstrap kept requesting that this thread be about specifically Christians fleeing persecution, not about general politics / debate about immigration policy.

But, to answer your question, unjust laws certainly exist, and the more laws deviate from God's perfect law, as taught to us in the Bible, the more unjust the laws become.

As far as "enforcing the law becomes cruelty", I'm not sure how to answer that. I think that laws dealing with a drunk driver should be enforced, including impounding the vehicle in question and taking the drunk driver off to the jail to dry out for the night before being released. Sometimes, a drunk driver has children with them, and then those children have to be placed into an emergency situation, with the family temporarily separated. This might indeed seem cruel and it very well may be. But I also think it's not good to just let drunk drivers go because doing all of the above would seem "cruel". To a person who doesn't have a lot of spare money and needs their car to get to/from work, pick up their kids at school, and so forth, having their car impounded and facing thousands of dollars in fees to get it back may very well seem cruel.

I appreciate your answer. But I want to be clear about the kind of situation I’m asking about.

I’m not talking about impounding a car or brief overnight detention. I’m talking about families detained for weeks or months without contact. I’m talking about people being deported to places where they face violence or torture. I’m talking about agents sweeping people off the street with no identification and no warning — like what happened to the Iranian Christians in the original article.

At what point does that kind of enforcement move beyond being unfortunate and become something Christians should say is unjust?

Where do you draw that line?

[JohnH]

I’m not talking about impounding a car or brief overnight detention. I’m talking about families detained for weeks or months without contact. I’m talking about people being deported to places where they face violence or torture. I’m talking about agents sweeping people off the street with no identification and no warning — like what happened to the Iranian Christians in the original article.

Is this a hypothetical? This is straying into a political discussion, but I'm not aware of the things you describe as happening. (If you think they are happenig, that's a political discussion, and should be held in an appropriate setting to discuss politics.)

I believe you have phrases your question as essentially this: "I'm talking about very unjust things happening. At what point should Christians say this is unjust?" It is tautological.

(I should add some of the things you describe I don't think are unjust, such as "agents sweeping people off the street with no identification and no warning" - but, again, that's a political discussion. I don't think we should engage in political discussion in this thread.)

[Szdfan]

I’m not talking about impounding a car or brief overnight detention. I’m talking about families detained for weeks or months without contact. I’m talking about people being deported to places where they face violence or torture. I’m talking about agents sweeping people off the street with no identification and no warning — like what happened to the Iranian Christians in the original article.

Is this a hypothetical? This is straying into a political discussion, but I'm not aware of the things you describe as happening. (If you think they are happenig, that's a political discussion, and should be held in an appropriate setting to discuss politics.)

I believe you have phrases your question as essentially this: "I'm talking about very unjust things happening. At what point should Christians say this is unjust?" It is tautological.

(I should add some of the things you describe I don't think are unjust, such as "agents sweeping people off the street with no identification and no warning" - but, again, that's a political discussion. I don't think we should engage in political discussion in this thread.)

It isn’t hypothetical. Families have been detained for months. People have been deported to face violence and death. These are documented realities. You may not want to call them unjust, but they aren’t abstractions.

I’m not asking for a debate about policy details. I’m asking a simple, moral question:

At what point does Christian responsibility require saying that a law, an enforcement practice and a system is not just or moral, even if it’s legal?

If the answer is never, I think that’s worth saying clearly.

[JohnH]

I’m not asking for a debate about policy details. I’m asking a simple, moral question:

At what point does Christian responsibility require saying that a law, an enforcement practice and a system is not just or moral, even if it’s legal?

Are you posing a hypothetical, or are you claiming these things happened? Your claims are subject to political debate. This isn't a thread to discuss politics.

If you want to talk about the hypothetical... Christians don't have a responsibility to comment on legislation at all, nor law enforcement practices, nor talk about "systems". Can you clarify for me in the New Testament where it says we're supposed to do that?

Can you show me an example of Jesus or the apostles detouring to discuss policy matters of the Roman Empire?

[Bootstrap]

The fact that ICE swept them up has zip all to do with the fact they are "Christians fleeing persecution", though. Do you want to talk about immigration issues and policy in general, or do you want to talk about Christians fleeing persecution?

At what point do you believe that enforcing the law becomes cruelty? Are there such things as unjust laws?

Bootstrap kept requesting that this thread be about specifically Christians fleeing persecution, not about general politics / debate about immigration policy.

Did you watch the video? Do you see cruelty in that video? If this were you and your wife, would you consider it cruel?

Even if there were some clear reason these people should be deported, this seems like a particularly cruel way to do it. But they came here legally. And their status as persecuted Christians from Iran was probably a major reason they were allowed to enter legally.

[Szdfan]

At what point do you believe that enforcing the law becomes cruelty? Are there such things as unjust laws?

Bootstrap kept requesting that this thread be about specifically Christians fleeing persecution, not about general politics / debate about immigration policy.

Did you watch the video? Do you see cruelty in that video? If this were you and your wife, would you consider it cruel?

Even if there were some clear reason these people should be deported, this seems like a particularly cruel way to do it. But they came here legally. And their status as persecuted Christians from Iran was probably a major reason they were allowed to enter legally.

And John, since you’re claiming that Christians don’t have any responsibility to speak out about systems and polices, I’d like to ask this —

If these Iranian Christians were your next-door neighbors and therefore directly in front of you, would you have a moral responsibility to speak out if masked agents came and took them without warning? What if you looked out your front window and saw these refugees who were your neighbors, who you knew from your neighborhood or even you church being taken away would you have a moral obligation to speak out?

Does proximity change the obligation?

[Szdfan]

I’m not asking for a debate about policy details. I’m asking a simple, moral question:

At what point does Christian responsibility require saying that a law, an enforcement practice and a system is not just or moral, even if it’s legal?

Are you posing a hypothetical, or are you claiming these things happened? Your claims are subject to political debate. This isn't a thread to discuss politics.

If you want to talk about the hypothetical... Christians don't have a responsibility to comment on legislation at all, nor law enforcement practices, nor talk about "systems". Can you clarify for me in the New Testament where it says we're supposed to do that?

Can you show me an example of Jesus or the apostles detouring to discuss policy matters of the Roman Empire?

Well, it's not exactly discussing policy, but Jesus overthrew the moneylenders' tables in the Temple in Jerusalem.

Mark 11:15–18

15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[a]? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”

18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

What Jesus did here isn't about personal piety or morals. What Jesus did here isn't even a genteel policy discussion. What Jesus did was direct action, physically overthrowing and disrupting a systemic and government sanctioned exploitation.

What Mark makes clear is that it was at this moment -- this particular action -- that caused the religious authorities to plot to kill Jesus.

Jesus wasn't crucified because he taught people to be nice to each other.

Jesus was crucified because he confronted power.

[Bootstrap]

If these Iranian Christians were your next-door neighbors and therefore directly in front of you, would you have a moral responsibility to speak out if masked agents came and took them without warning? What if you looked out your front window and saw these refugees who were your neighbors, who you knew from your neighborhood or even you church being taken away would you have a moral obligation to speak out?

Does proximity change the obligation?

Another thought experiment. Imagine this video showed the Iranian government doing the same thing to people who committed no crime. Would we have a moral obligation to look the other way? Is this OK for some governments but not for others?