ICE targets Church Leaders and Christians Fleeing Persecution

[Szdfan]

Unlike the M S St Louis, it appears the “refugees” involved were able to make it to Mexico and could have applied for asylum there. If no other country in the entire world were willing to accept them / be safe for them, I would be more open to the idea of accepting them in America.

Since America doesn’t share a land border with Iran, I am more skeptical of claims we somehow need to be sympathetic just because they are Christians and would rather perceive as fellow Christians they should be open to following sensible laws.

Overall, I am a bit exhausted with the entire fundraising and political apparatus that surrounds the “persecuted Christians” narrative, and in particular Voice of the Martyrs. I also have grave concerns a lot of these organizations have ties to Western governments and are involved in intelligence activity. That’s not a good witness at all to other countries.

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[JohnH]

Szdfan,

Do you think those scriptures apply to us as individuals, or do they apply to how governments should be conducted?

I am very interested in hearing how government should be run according to New Testament principles.

[Szdfan]

Szdfan,

Do you think those scriptures apply to us as individuals, or do they apply to how governments should be conducted?

I am very interested in hearing how government should be run according to New Testament principles.

I’m talking about our moral obligations as Christians. If the State acts in unjust and harmful ways that cause human suffering, and the Church’s response is to defend that suffering simply because the State is following bureaucratic procedures, then I think you have Christianity without Jesus.

[JohnH]

Szdfan,

Do you think those scriptures apply to us as individuals, or do they apply to how governments should be conducted?

I am very interested in hearing how government should be run according to New Testament principles.

I’m talking about our moral obligations as Christians. If the State acts in unjust and harmful ways that cause human suffering, and the Church’s response is to defend that suffering simply because the State is following bureaucratic procedures, then I think you have Christianity without Jesus.

So what are you saying Christians should do?

Find ways to effectively change the government, e.g., start an NGO, lobby Congress, run for office, curry political influence, etc.?

Protest in ineffective ways like issuing strongly worded resolutions?

Perhaps the church's job is not to "defend" or not defend the things governments do, and instead we should be focusing (as individuals) on how we treat people right in front of us. You know, our neighbors.

I don't see anywhere in the NT that as Christians we're supposed to condemn the government's bureaucratic procedures, call for open borders, and so on.

[Soloist]

I don't see anywhere in the NT that as Christians we're supposed to condemn the government's bureaucratic procedures, call for open borders, and so on.

Can you show me anywhere where it says we’re supposed to endorse them? Or even defend their practices?

[JohnH]

I don't see anywhere in the NT that as Christians we're supposed to condemn the government's bureaucratic procedures, call for open borders, and so on.

Can you show me anywhere where it says we’re supposed to endorse them? Or even defend their practices?

The most the NT says about it is that we should generally obey the magistrate, and that if we are persecuted, it should be for righteousness' sake, not for petty breaking of the law. I think there is a certain amount of leeway to decide to disobey government regulations (which could include things like illegally crossing a border), although the NT doesn't really lay down any principles for that.

As far as debating what government policy should be... I don't see the NT saying we should condemn or condone what governments do. it appears we have leeway to debate policy as much as we want. What I reject is those who claim the NT (or OT) make their policy ideals correct. One of the more absurd ones is citing the OT as somehow endorsing a certain immigration policy - do the people saying this really believe we should be living in theocracy defined by Old Testament law?

If we actually should be criticizing the government and stating what policy should be, then it should be glaringly obvious there would be no higher priority than protecting innocent, unborn babies. Yet the people I see bleating very loudly about immigration haven't had much to say about legalizing abortion, including how much has happened to promote and legalize abortion in state constitutions in the last few years.

[Szdfan]

Szdfan,

Do you think those scriptures apply to us as individuals, or do they apply to how governments should be conducted?

I am very interested in hearing how government should be run according to New Testament principles.

I’m talking about our moral obligations as Christians. If the State acts in unjust and harmful ways that cause human suffering, and the Church’s response is to defend that suffering simply because the State is following bureaucratic procedures, then I think you have Christianity without Jesus.

So what are you saying Christians should do?

Find ways to effectively change the government, e.g., start an NGO, lobby Congress, run for office, curry political influence, etc.?

Protest in ineffective ways like issuing strongly worded resolutions?

Perhaps the church's job is not to "defend" or not defend the things governments do, and instead we should be focusing (as individuals) on how we treat people right in front of us. You know, our neighbors.

I don't see anywhere in the NT that as Christians we're supposed to condemn the government's bureaucratic procedures, call for open borders, and so on.

I’m not talking about the church running the government. I’m talking about the church not losing its soul when the government causes harm.

It doesn’t take a political campaign to say, “This is wrong.” You don’t need to call for open borders to say, “These people are suffering, and we shouldn’t justify it.”

I’m not demanding that Christians fix the system overnight. I’m asking why so many seem more invested in defending bureaucratic cruelty than in seeing the people crushed by it.

If the church can’t speak with clarity when the state inflicts suffering — especially on fellow believers — then what exactly is it for?

[JohnH]

I’m not talking about the church running the government. I’m talking about the church not losing its soul when the government causes harm.

It doesn’t take a political campaign to say, “This is wrong.” You don’t need to call for open borders to say, “These people are suffering, and we shouldn’t justify it.”

I’m not demanding that Christians fix the system overnight. I’m asking why so many seem more invested in defending bureaucratic cruelty than in seeing the people crushed by it.

If the church can’t speak with clarity when the state inflicts suffering — especially on fellow believers — then what exactly is it for?

OK. First of all, I'd ask what you mean by "the church".

Is "the church" speaking with clarify on the abject horror of abortion? Over 1 million were killed last year.

Is "the church" speaking about the grave sin of homosexual marriage and the judgment that brings on a people, which we can clearly see spelled out in scripture?

Do you support "the church" speaking out about those things? Do you agree they're at a far deeper level than immigration policy concerning whether someone gets relocated from the U.S. to Panama?

[joshuabgood]

John the Baptist wasn't afraid to speak prophetically to a politician about what is right and wrong.

[Grace]

I’m talking about our moral obligations as Christians. If the State acts in unjust and harmful ways that cause human suffering, and the Church’s response is to defend that suffering simply because the State is following bureaucratic procedures, then I think you have Christianity without Jesus.

So what are you saying Christians should do?

Find ways to effectively change the government, e.g., start an NGO, lobby Congress, run for office, curry political influence, etc.?

Protest in ineffective ways like issuing strongly worded resolutions?

Perhaps the church's job is not to "defend" or not defend the things governments do, and instead we should be focusing (as individuals) on how we treat people right in front of us. You know, our neighbors.

I don't see anywhere in the NT that as Christians we're supposed to condemn the government's bureaucratic procedures, call for open borders, and so on.

I’m not talking about the church running the government. I’m talking about the church not losing its soul when the government causes harm.

It doesn’t take a political campaign to say, “This is wrong.” You don’t need to call for open borders to say, “These people are suffering, and we shouldn’t justify it.”

I’m not demanding that Christians fix the system overnight. I’m asking why so many seem more invested in defending bureaucratic cruelty than in seeing the people crushed by it.

If the church can’t speak with clarity when the state inflicts suffering — especially on fellow believers — then what exactly is it for?

I see a lot of lamenting and complaining about the situation concerning ICE agents going after people here illegally, which includes people of ALL religions, not just Christians. I keep reading that the church should speak up about the situation, as if that will have an impact (I highly doubt it will). Beyond that, so far, I haven't seen one person offer any solutions. I agree that some of the people here illegally should be allowed to stay and pursue a path to citizenship. But the people who are complaining that the church isn't doing enough, for illegal immigrants being detained by ICE, need to offer more solutions than just complaining. And for those who make the accusation that the church is invested in defending bureaucratic cruelty. If they were silent from 2020 to 2024 when the government was part of extreme bureaucratic cruelty, they have no room to make accusations now.