ICE targets Church Leaders and Christians Fleeing Persecution

[JohnH]

When these things do go to court, the courts disagree with you.

No, they don't "disagree with me". The courts have issued a variety of rulings. Overall, the original legislation (that's been on the books for decades) about immigration courts seems to stand.

There's probably little value in arguing the facts here,

Couldn't agree more.

the courts and immigration courts are the appropriate place for that.

The courts are not the final arbiters of the land. Generally speaking, two branches of our government decides what happens when they agree.

I wish there were also open debate in Congress on these things.

There has been open debate. The current Congress has made it clear it fully supports the current administration's agenda with regard to migration policy and enforcement and allocated billions more dollars to keep doing it, and do it more.

But perhaps we agree on the principle: Due process should be followed, people should have access to legal representation, appeals, etc.

Yes, I think we agree on that. I happen to think the due process for immigration courts has been followed. Access to legal representation is available. Appeals can be made, although there is very limited legal basis to do so for migration issues.

People who are not guilty of any crime should not be sent to prison.

Yes. Migration detention isn't "prison", though. People without legal status to stay are being deported, not imprisoned.

Cruel and unusual punishment is bad even when people are guilty of a crime.

I agree. I am not aware of cruel and unusual punishment happening. However, immigration courts are not courts that even judge if someone is guilty of a crime. They simply adjudicate migration issues whether someone has legal status to stay in the U.S. or not. That is all,.

Torture and disappearing people and prison camps are alarm signals.

I agree. As far as I know, torture isn't happening, and people are not "disappearing". There are not "prison camps". However, there are detention facilities, and they are necessary in particular when migrants raise appeals which require them waiting in detention to have an appeal heard as opposed to being immediately deported. Adequate detention facilities are also needed that can handle the quantity of illegal aliens present in the country without overcrowding.

And perhaps we also agree on this: When Christians are persecuted for their faith, we should have their backs, we should not be in the crowd throwing stones.

Of course. If someone near me were dealing with detention (even if lawful and just), I would not be "turning my back" on them, regardless of if they were Christian or not. At the same time, there isn't too much I can do. I'm not in charge of prisons or detention facilities; I'm not a lawyer; I'm not someone who has the best up-to-date knowledge of migration laws and so on. I do advise people to be careful to have their paperwork in order, keep an up to date ID, keep copies of it, keep your name and address updated with everything relevant such as the DMV, Medicaid, IRS and so forth, if you're a citizen, get a passport, get copies of your birth certificate. This is normal stuff that people have had to deal with in many different countries.

[Bootstrap]

Note: We are no longer discussing the article in the original post. This happens a LOT - other controversies prevent us from discussing whatever the thread was about. It's often called "hijacking a thread".

I wonder if we could limit the discussion to the original article. No generalities or truisms or political stances, just what is going on in the article? This topic seems like the kind of thing we should be able to discuss on a Christian forum.

[Bootstrap]

Note: We are no longer discussing the article in the original post. This happens a LOT - other controversies prevent us from discussing whatever the thread was about. It's often called "hijacking a thread".

I wonder if we could limit the discussion to the original article. No generalities or truisms or political stances, just what is going on in the article? This topic seems like the kind of thing we should be able to discuss on a Christian forum.

I suppose you could start a thread and restrict it to solely the article and then say disagreeing with the article isn’t allowed.

The article itself is inherently political and takes political stances.

See what I mean?

Why the filibuster? Why not discuss the article itself, taking whatever views you want, but actually spending time to check facts and discuss what the article says instead of making up whatever? What bothers you about actually discussing the article?

Christians who fled persecution and came here legally are now being hauled off, having committed no crimes as far as we can tell. Do you disagree with that? If you have evidence to the contrary, could you please present it?

I think it is quite possible to discuss this as Christians. And needful.

[R7ehr]

Seems like if my Christian identity is chief, and I think of myself chiefly as a stranger and pilgrim, and other Christians as my brothers and sisters, and fellow pilgrims (even though they are not Americans) I will respond one way. Because I am a citizen of a different country, just as they are.
And if I firstly identify as an American citizen, and my fellow patriotic Americans are my brothers (even though they are not Christians), and people of other countries are aliens, and competitors, then I will respond to their plight a different way. Because I am a citizen of America, but they are not.

[JohnH]

Why the filibuster? Why not discuss the article itself, taking whatever views you want, but actually spending time to check facts and discuss what the article says instead of making up whatever? What bothers you about actually discussing the article?

The "news" source you picked is consistently biased and presents a pro-migration view and has a fundamentally anti-Trump and anti-immigration restriction view (which I learned from spending time to check facts and the article itself). But I'm not sure it's fruitful to sit here debating that.

If you disagree, please find some articles from that source promoting the idea of less immigration or more immigration restrictions / supporting deporting illegal aliens.

Christians who fled persecution and came here legally are now being hauled off, having committed no crimes as far as we can tell. Do you disagree with that? If you have evidence to the contrary, could you please present it?

If we are talking about government policy, then I don't think it should matter if someone is Christian or not. Does that make their case somehow different than Muslims fleeing persecution or atheists fleeing persecution?

Secondly, what evidence is there, actually, that Iran engages in systematic persecution of Christians? As far as I can tell, they've had Christian communities for a very long time - thousands of years - and are one of the more pluralistic countries in the area. Iran is much more tolerant of Christianity than Saudi Arabia, yet I have yet to hear of any "Christians fleeing persecution in Saudi Arabia".

This story, instead, coincides with when Iran is being painted as America's enemy, America drops bombs on Iran, Israel fires missiles at Iran, and there is a very strong lobby that wants America to go to war with Iran. Thus I am really skeptical of the timing of this.

I think it is quite possible to discuss this as Christians. And needful.

Well, as Christians, talking about government policy is different because government has different agendas and priorities than myself as a Christian does. For example, I don't engage in detentions or deportations and don't plan to. I also recognize that a government can control its borders and can also decide that migrants previously admitted aren't welcome anymore.

From further research, it looks like these Iranians were removed to Panama, which doesn't seem like much of a problem at all.

[Valerie]

Seems like if my Christian identity is chief, and I think of myself chiefly as a stranger and pilgrim, and other Christians as my brothers and sisters, and fellow pilgrims (even though they are not Americans) I will respond one way. Because I am a citizen of a different country, just as they are.
And if I firstly identify as an American citizen, and my fellow patriotic Americans are my brothers (even though they are not Christians), and people of other countries are aliens, and competitors, then I will respond to their plight a different way. Because I am a citizen of America, but they are not.

As a Christian who reads Scriptures I can certainly understand what is transpiring right now is very complicated and it became that way by those who don’t follow Christ so I do see the need to help persecuted Christians which was allowed under the Trump administration before & handled correctly, can happen now. But we have to separate that from the enormous task of what ICE has to do because of the millions that came “not” by persecution and our President has to undo damage that has harmed citizens of the country he was voted in to protect. We have to know because many have ill intentions and the support of extra millions of people is too much to expect without knowing who all these people are. Shame on the previous administration who blew it badly and now others pay the price

[JohnH]

Here's a bit more background:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/iran ... anama.html

Ghasemzadeh and her brother Shahin crossed into the U.S. illegally from Mexico in late December 2024, seeking asylum. They were detained for five days in San Diego and then separated. She was deported to Panama, while Shahin was transferred to a detention facility in Houston, where he remains awaiting his immigration hearing.

The first question is why they needed to enter America from Mexico. Mexico is a safe country for Christians. Christians aren't persecuted in Mexico, generally speaking.

Ghasemzadeh and her brother Shahin crossed into the U.S. illegally from Mexico in late December 2024, seeking asylum. They were detained for five days in San Diego and then separated. She was deported to Panama, while Shahin was transferred to a detention facility in Houston, where he remains awaiting his immigration hearing.

So here's what doesn't make sense: the claim that America is somehow targeting "Iranian Christians fleeing persecution". In reality, people from Iran make it all the way to Mexico, but then don't stay there and try to enter America. Why is that happening? America is obviously not a very good place to go to seek asylum, presently.

And in any case, they're in Panama now (except for the one who is awaiting an immigration hearing). Is Panama not a safe country for Christians?

Is there some compelling reason as Christians we need to advocate for people from basically anywhere to settle in America, specifically?

[Szdfan]

Seems like if my Christian identity is chief, and I think of myself chiefly as a stranger and pilgrim, and other Christians as my brothers and sisters, and fellow pilgrims (even though they are not Americans) I will respond one way. Because I am a citizen of a different country, just as they are.
And if I firstly identify as an American citizen, and my fellow patriotic Americans are my brothers (even though they are not Christians), and people of other countries are aliens, and competitors, then I will respond to their plight a different way. Because I am a citizen of America, but they are not.

As a Christian who reads Scriptures I can certainly understand what is transpiring right now is very complicated and it became that way by those who don’t follow Christ so I do see the need to help persecuted Christians which was allowed under the Trump administration before & handled correctly, can happen now. But we have to separate that from the enormous task of what ICE has to do because of the millions that came “not” by persecution and our President has to undo damage that has harmed citizens of the country he was voted in to protect. We have to know because many have ill intentions and the support of extra millions of people is too much to expect without knowing who all these people are. Shame on the previous administration who blew it badly and now others pay the price

Valerie, I’m curious: what do you believe it means to love Christians from other countries more than your national identity? Do you think that Christians owe each other more than they owe the countries they are citizens of? What responsibilities do American Christians have towards other Christians fleeing persecution?

[JohnH]

So just to make sure I understand you clearly, are you saying that even when the State targets Christians, the Church has no moral witness about what it’s doing?

Is the state targeting Christians? I don't think anyone so far has been targeted because they're a Christian.

As far as "the church having a moral witness about what it's doing", no, I don't think "the church" (which certainly doesn't speak with a unified voice) needs to be getting excessively involved in governmental affairs. I mean, I think the church should have a witness that gay marriage is wrong; would you be willing to join me in having a moral witness to the state that it should stop recognizing "gay marriage"?

These Iranian Christians were here legally.

I don't agree with that statement; they illegally entered from Mexico. Mexico is a safe third country, so I don't see why they didn't just stay in Mexico. Regardless, they were granted the ability to apply for asylum via the CBP One app, but such an application is always subject to immediate review & denial by the government, which appears to be what happened.

They had pending asylum cases because they were escaping religious persecution in Iran.

Iran doesn't share a border with America, so how did they end up here?

ICE has arbitrarily cancelled their legal status and deported them. Are you saying that the Church has nothing to say about any of this?

Should the church have something to say about people being deported from America to Panama? I don't see what witness "the Church" is supposed to have about that. Can you explain to me some kind of biblical principle that says that people from the opposite side of the globe somehow need to be in America, and it's unbiblical for them to remain in Mexico or Panama, which are both safe countries for Christians to be in?

[Grace]

So just to make sure I understand you clearly, are you saying that even when the State targets Christians, the Church has no moral witness about what it’s doing? These Iranian Christians were here legally. They had pending asylum cases because they were escaping religious persecution in Iran. ICE has arbitrarily cancelled their legal status and deported them. Are you saying that the Church has nothing to say about any of this?

to say the state is targeting Christians in the case of illegal immigrants is a misnomer. The state is not targeting them because they are Christians, but because they are here illegally or there has been a glitch in their seeking citizenship process.