ICE targets Church Leaders and Christians Fleeing Persecution

[Jazman]

Here's a situation, that depending on your media silo, you may or may not have heard of... (But if you're a church attending Christian, ideally you would have heard of or will soon...)
These Iranian Christians fled religious persecution in Iran and legally sought and were granted shelter in the USA. ICE/Trump Admin/movement/ideology are now targeting/persecuting these Christians. I invite you to pray for them and pray the are released and are able to live in peace with their families here in the USA. I invite you to pray for the repentance of those carrying out these kinds of things against our brothers and sisters in Christ.


ICE Goes After Church Leaders and Christians Fleeing PersecutionOn Tuesday, Iranian asylum-seekers were detained in Los Angeles, adding to the count of church members taken despite lawful status.

[Bootstrap]

From the article:

On Tuesday, Iranian asylum-seekers were detained in Los Angeles, adding to the count of church members taken despite lawful status.

[media]https://www.instagram.com/reel/DLT5rxxO ... _copy_link[/media]

On Tuesday, the pastor recorded on his phone as masked federal immigration agents arrested two of his church members on a Los Angeles sidewalk. The Iranian husband and wife had pending asylum cases, according to Torosian. They fled Iran for fear of persecution for being Christians and had been part of his congregation for about a year.

The detentions add to a growing number of church members and Christians seeking religious protection who have been detained by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Often they have no apparent criminal history. In many instances, they were in the United States lawfully, complying with orders from immigration courts. ICE has traditionally not deported individuals with pending asylum petitions, who are allowed to work while their cases proceed.

Earlier this week, according to Torosian, immigration agents arrested a separate Iranian Christian family who worshiped at Cornerstone. Ministry leaders told CT they have heard reports of other Iranians being detained in recent days. They echo stories of Iranian Christians the administration has already deported to countries such as Panama, where some remain.

I don't see the big deal. There are laws that govern all of this. If someone is present lawfully, they aren't subject to removal. If they aren't present lawfully (which can include people for whom TPS expires - the T stands for "temporary", not "permament"), they are subject to removal.

[Bootstrap]

I don't see the big deal. There are laws that govern all of this. If someone is present lawfully, they aren't subject to removal. If they aren't present lawfully (which can include people for whom TPS expires - the T stands for "temporary", not "permament"), they are subject to removal.

I wish I had your faith in government. Do you always believe all government officials carefully follow the law? Do you believe that we need mechanisms to watch out for abuses by government officials?

People are, in fact, being disappeared, their relatives do not know where to find them. Armed men show up, their faces covered, with no identification, and they take them. Courts have said people have been deported to prisons that torture people without due process, and with no evidence of having committed crimes.

To me, this is a big deal.

And I think Hebrews 13 tells us how to respond:

Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

[JohnH]

People are, in fact, being disappeared, their relatives do not know where to find them. Armed men show up, their faces covered, with no identification, and they take them. Courts have said people have been deported to prisons that torture people without due process, and with no evidence of having committed crimes.

Nobody has been deported to a prison that "tortures people without due process". If you are referring to a citizen of a country deported to his own country and then being imprisoned there, that is a matter between that citizen and his own country. America does not have authority over the domestic matters in other countries.

Do you have any actual evidence Iranian Christians are being "disappeared"? From the best sources above, it appears some are being removed to Panama. Just because someone claims to be an Iranian Christian seeking asylum doesn't mean they actually are, and they may actually be spies for the Iranian regime, and the U.S. may decide they don't want them to stay in America. That's an entirely reasonable thing for the government to do.

[Bootstrap]

People are, in fact, being disappeared, their relatives do not know where to find them. Armed men show up, their faces covered, with no identification, and they take them. Courts have said people have been deported to prisons that torture people without due process, and with no evidence of having committed crimes.

Nobody has been deported to a prison that "tortures people without due process". If you are referring to a citizen of a country deported to his own country and then being imprisoned there, that is a matter between that citizen and his own country. America does not have authority over the domestic matters in other countries.

I think there are quite a few examples of this. One of the most famous is Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, who was sent to prison in El Salvador even though he had never been charged with or convicted of a crime in either the US or El Salvador at the time. There was no trial before he was sent to prison. He says he was tortured there - there should be a court proceeding to hear those claims, but the Trump Administration has talked about sending him out of the country to prevent that from happening.

And look, the Trump Administration is paying El Salvador to imprison people, the president of El Salvador was quite happy to jump on a plane and come to the White House for a press conference, and Trump himself retweeted videos of prisoners being treated cruelly, calling calling Bukele a “great guy” and thanking him for his “understanding”. Trump insisted on military flights and dramatic military imagery. Trump is not the innocent, helpless victim of what he is paying Bukele to do.

When Abrego-Garcia was arrested, his wife lost contact with him after he called from Texas on March 15. She found out her husband was in El Salvador after she saw photos in the local Salvadoran news. If your relatives have no way of knowing where you are, you have been disappeared.

ICE routinely arrests noncitizens at homes, workplaces, and courthouses - including people who are here legally.

Legally, families and lawyers must be able to find where the person is held. But there are many documented cases where families had no idea where the person was taken for days or weeks, the person was transferred across state lines without notice (probably looking for "friendly" judges), and lawyers could not find their clients. That's what I mean by "disappearing".

According to the law, the government must provide the detainee a Notice to Appear (NTA) or charging document. This is the official paper stating why they are detained and in removal proceedings. Over and over again, people are being detained and imprisoned without this.

Do you have any actual evidence Iranian Christians are being "disappeared"? From the best sources above, it appears some are being removed to Panama.

Suppose your wife is taken and you simply cannot find her. As the article mentions:

Nina and the church hired a lawyer—another pastor in Florida—and together they drove up and down the state, trying to find Segura as he was moved between detention centers from Clearwater to Miami. No ICE facility would allow Nina a pastoral visit. Eventually Segura was transferred to Texas.

Would this be OK with you?

Just because someone claims to be an Iranian Christian seeking asylum doesn't mean they actually are, and they may actually be spies for the Iranian regime, and the U.S. may decide they don't want them to stay in America. That's an entirely reasonable thing for the government to do.

But only if those things happen to be true. Which is why you want due process, where the government can explain things like why they have arrested someone who came here legally, and the public can have some insight into what is happening.

Immigration courts are important. When the government is hauling people off the streets and paying governments without basic human rights to imprison them and building huge imprisonment facilities here, "just trust us" isn't good enough.

[Ernie]

I’m not pushing for that; I was simply asking what was meant by “entitled”, as opposed to simply being allowed to seek and talk to counsel. An entitlement to me would be access to a court appointed public defender. There is no right to free legal counsel in deportation proceedings, as they aren’t criminal trials.

As far as “access to counsel” I have not heard of any cases of people being denied counsel when appearing before immigration courts; are there actual cases of that? Moving people to different detention facilities seems to be happening due to space issues. I assume you don’t want overcrowding, right?

Two people I know who have attended church with us the last year (and there are tens of thousands more) were detained without warning. They were not allowed to find out what the charges were or talk with an ICE officer for many days. And they find it nearly impossible to make a good case for themselves while in prison - collecting documents, doing necessary research, collecting character references, etc. Attorneys can only do so much. They can only work with whatever documentation the defendant can provide them with.

Functionally, detaining people with no criminal record, is depriving them of due process.

[JohnL]

Here's a situation, that depending on your media silo, you may or may not have heard of... (But if you're a church attending Christian, ideally you would have heard of or will soon...)[/i]

This sounds like political propaganda pot stirring to me. I'm going to wait for more facts from multiple sides.
I can tell you that there are those who claim to be Christians but whose behaviors say the exact opposite. The latest example is that woman who claims to be a Christian pastor's wife and who posted on social media that she was glad "those white (expletive)" drowned. She lost her job over that post, as well she should. There's a lot of horrifically evil posts appearing on social media from those who claim to be Christian or other faith. By their fruits we know them is all I can say.

[Bootstrap]

There's a lot of horrifically evil posts appearing on social media from those who claim to be Christian or other faith. By their fruits we know them is all I can say.

I agree with that. This thread is a place to practice what we say we believe.

Shouldn't we at least give Christians who are facing persecution the benefit of the doubt? Do you believe that Iran persecutes Christians? Were we wrong to offer refuge to persecuted Christians from Iran?

How do true Christians apply the Bible to this kind of situation? Consider verses like these:

Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. Continue to remember those in prison as if you were together with them in prison, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

This sounds like political propaganda pot stirring to me. I'm going to wait for more facts from multiple sides.

Due process is the way that we hear facts from multiple sides. Without due process, the government decides what the facts are and the people they disappear or jail are silenced. Sure, there are false brethren, but shouldn't we want them to at least have a chance to be heard? I can guarantee you this: in persecuted countries, there are often lots of horrible claims about the crimes that Christians are supposedly committing. I could tell you stories ... we should be slow to believe politicians about these things.

I agree that we don't want political propaganda pot stirring to guide us. So what is the alternative? How do Bible-following Christians approach situations where our brethren are paying a steep price for following Jesus? Can we at least start by not stirring political pots against them and giving them the benefit of the doubt?

[JohnH]

Shouldn't we at least give Christians who are facing persecution the benefit of the doubt? Do you believe that Iran persecutes Christians? Were we wrong to offer refuge to persecuted Christians from Iran?

Iran's regime has a lot of things I don't like, but as far as I understand it it has generally been tolerant of other faiths, including Jews, Zoroastrians, Armenian Apostolic Christians, Church of the East adherents, and other Christian groups.

I can certainly believe the regime persecutes Christians since they also persecute Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims.

How do true Christians apply the Bible to this kind of situation? Consider verses like these:

None of those verses have anything to do with immigration laws, immigration detention, or the fact that countries do indeed have immigration policies and borders. Personally, I don't police anyone's immigration status and try to show kindness, respect, and concern for my neighbors and am willing to help them out of a jam. I am not in charge of migration policy, though, and I would generally advise anyone to be aware of migration laws (in any country) and the current societal climate towards migrants and to be careful not to run afoul of arcane rules.

[Bootstrap]

Again, it's important to speak truth.

I agree.

Nobody is being "denied legal representation". The laws that were passed decades ago are being followed. There is due process of law and opportunities for appeals or to have a case re-heard.

When these things do go to court, the courts disagree with you. There's probably little value in arguing the facts here, the courts and immigration courts are the appropriate place for that. I wish there were also open debate in Congress on these things.

But perhaps we agree on the principle: Due process should be followed, people should have access to legal representation, appeals, etc. People who are not guilty of any crime should not be sent to prison. Cruel and unusual punishment is bad even when people are guilty of a crime. Torture and disappearing people and prison camps are alarm signals.

And perhaps we also agree on this: When Christians are persecuted for their faith, we should have their backs, we should not be in the crowd throwing stones.