Illegal alien arrivals now greater than American births?

[barnhart]

HK, I don't think any of your points are based on what I posted or on what I have said in the past. If so, I stand corrected.

I don't know as much about the Penn Mennonites but my Virginia ancestors were violently attacked and driven out upon arrival so I think it is fair to say they were unwanted and uninvited. Even though Penn invited them, I question how welcomed they were by the inhabitants. You will notice I never said one thing justifies another, only the conditions of economic desperation and hope of a better life are in common and that should create enough sympathy to guard against rising xenophobia.

I'm not aware of supporting "open borders", perhaps you mistaken me for another poster. I would be pleased with a vastly expanded work visa program even if it were less expensive than the Ellis Island era immigration policies.

As to your final point that no one is arguing against all immigration, I never claimed that, but I will say there has been a lot of calling people "illegals", talk about replacement theory conspiracy, comparing immigration to vermin infestation, claiming administration policy was "open borders". These are the ideas and attitudes I identify as un- christlike and un-charitable.

[barnhart]

Today, much of the popular furor over immigration is over illegal immigration, where many arrivals are not complying with the law. How should our Anabaptist heritage of respect for the state and its laws, while still seeing the state as often oppositional to the interests of the kingdom of God, inform our view of those who disregard the borders and immigration laws of our country?

I face this question on a regular basis. Everyone I compete against in my work relies on undocumented labor. I have not felt good about this even when long time friends come begging for work or asking me to straw purchase work vehicles. Even so I don't feel morally superior to them, if the situation were reversed, I might well make similar decisions. I know many who are sincere believers, working hard to fulfill their obligations to support families. I can think of four offhand whose conditions were extreme enough, I would have made similar decisions.

My ancestors lived for 150 years in a slave economy, competing with slave labor and living beside both enslavers and the enslaved. I think about the decisions they made about living around injustice, oppression and bad law and I try to be like them.

[Valerie]

I get this sort of...

But on the other hand, the question of the legitimacy of European colonialism, imperialism, and colonial immigration is far from "settled" in the realm of history/social science. On what legal basis, besides imperial power, did the colonial charters order and rule? And on what, besides guns germs and steel, did those imperial powers rule?

There are many who feel it was pure naked power, ambition, and violence that "legalized" such charters and subsequent invitations and immigrations.

If we are only willing to live under the rule of earthly powers that are free from ambition and violence, is there anywhere could we go?

They are the "powers that be" not necessarily the "powers that ought to be."

The entire history of the world is a history of human migration and conflict and of stronger groups imposing their will over weaker groups. Starting with the very earliest written texts like Exodus and the Iliad and continuing on up to this day (Ukraine, Gaza, Uyghurs, the Congo, Sudan, Syria, etc.)

I don’t think it is possible to live anywhere in this world that is free of any history of conflict, exploitation, or violence. No such place exists. But I think we can be more humble and aware of our own histories and more generous towards those who have been displaced and exploited, either by our ancestors or others. That seems to me to be the fundamental message of Jesus.

I live on land that was stolen from the Chinook and Cowlitz peoples along the Columbia. Who no doubt took it from others going on back into pre-history. Does that mean I plan to give it back? No. That ship has sailed. But it does mean I try to be thoughtful and generous towards others who have less and who may be seeking refuge in the lands that I temporarily occupy along with other Americans. As well as to the descendants of the original inhabitants of this land. I think that is exactly what Jesus teaches.

That’s why we have a legal process. Jesus never encouraged breaking the law.

[JohnH]

This pretty much sums up this whole thread.

Civil disobedience for me but not for thee. Or the law applies to thee but not to me.

OK then.

That is not what I said. I said civil disobedience may be acceptable when necessary to attend church services. I said it is not acceptable in order to make more money.

Did you even read what you wrote?

You started out on business closures which is the very definition of economic no different from people seeking work.

I said that many Anabaptists closed their businesses to comply with state mandated orders to close (which in retrospect were unnecessary, but that’s a different topic). I do think the government using force to destroy someone’s business out of some notion of “health” is a bit different than someone migrating a long distance across countries simply to get a bigger paycheck.

But nonetheless, what I said was many chose to accept their businesses being destroyed and great financial loss in order to comply with government orders.

Then you pivoted to church which was never closed in your state.

Yet many churches, such as my own congregation, closed for a period of time and then complied with government regulations to keep services to 10 or to 15 people.

In my state indoor in person churches were closed briefly during the first few months after they were shown to cause death then they transitioned to a phased reopening plan.

But generally speaking this forum is full of endless discussions of Menno/Anabaptist scofflaws.

This forum has discussion about it, partly because it is not very common.

The endless threads about illegal sales of raw milk

There is extremely little “illegal sales”. In my state, PA, and others, there are legal mechanisms to do so, which nearly all people comply with. I buy my milk from conservative Methodists and we do so in a manner that is entirely legal.

There is litigation ongoing with exactly 1 person out of a national population of about a million Anabaptists.

Driving of illegal vehicles on public highways

I (and others) have admonished brethren and also made public statements against things like illegal tint, speeding on motorcycles, and so forth. I don’t think anyone is arguing for civil disobedience as being acceptable in this arena.

There was one about illegal gun sales by the Amish

Alleged illegal gun sales. I’m not Amish, but most Amish I know wound be uncomfortable with any kind of large number of sales of guns and don’t want to break any firearm laws.

Long threads about breaking of anti-discrimination laws

Huh?

[Ken]

If we are only willing to live under the rule of earthly powers that are free from ambition and violence, is there anywhere could we go?

They are the "powers that be" not necessarily the "powers that ought to be."

The entire history of the world is a history of human migration and conflict and of stronger groups imposing their will over weaker groups. Starting with the very earliest written texts like Exodus and the Iliad and continuing on up to this day (Ukraine, Gaza, Uyghurs, the Congo, Sudan, Syria, etc.)

I don’t think it is possible to live anywhere in this world that is free of any history of conflict, exploitation, or violence. No such place exists. But I think we can be more humble and aware of our own histories and more generous towards those who have been displaced and exploited, either by our ancestors or others. That seems to me to be the fundamental message of Jesus.

I live on land that was stolen from the Chinook and Cowlitz peoples along the Columbia. Who no doubt took it from others going on back into pre-history. Does that mean I plan to give it back? No. That ship has sailed. But it does mean I try to be thoughtful and generous towards others who have less and who may be seeking refuge in the lands that I temporarily occupy along with other Americans. As well as to the descendants of the original inhabitants of this land. I think that is exactly what Jesus teaches.

That’s why we have a legal process. Jesus never encouraged breaking the law.

We no longer have a legal process of any kind.

What we have instead is a government breaking the law right and left to achieve their political objectives because they found the legal process too inconvenient and constraining.

[Valerie]

The entire history of the world is a history of human migration and conflict and of stronger groups imposing their will over weaker groups. Starting with the very earliest written texts like Exodus and the Iliad and continuing on up to this day (Ukraine, Gaza, Uyghurs, the Congo, Sudan, Syria, etc.)

I don’t think it is possible to live anywhere in this world that is free of any history of conflict, exploitation, or violence. No such place exists. But I think we can be more humble and aware of our own histories and more generous towards those who have been displaced and exploited, either by our ancestors or others. That seems to me to be the fundamental message of Jesus.

I live on land that was stolen from the Chinook and Cowlitz peoples along the Columbia. Who no doubt took it from others going on back into pre-history. Does that mean I plan to give it back? No. That ship has sailed. But it does mean I try to be thoughtful and generous towards others who have less and who may be seeking refuge in the lands that I temporarily occupy along with other Americans. As well as to the descendants of the original inhabitants of this land. I think that is exactly what Jesus teaches.

That’s why we have a legal process. Jesus never encouraged breaking the law.

We no longer have a legal process of any kind.

What we have instead is a government breaking the law right and left to achieve their political objectives because they found the legal process too inconvenient and constraining.

It’s a shame Biden created this whole terrible situation just to get votes from illegal citizens (yes that’s why they started pouring in as soon as he “supposedly “ was elected) it’s all about getting more votes NOT compassion. Studies have already shown Republicans donate more than Democrats so I’m sick and tired of the accusations that because we want control over our borders we are haters. That is a false accusation.

[Grace]

=Valerie post_id=276467 time=1751501345 user_id=31398]

We no longer have a legal process of any kind.

What we have instead is a government breaking the law right and left to achieve their political objectives because they found the legal process too inconvenient and constraining.

It’s a shame Biden created this whole terrible situation just to get votes from illegal citizens (yes that’s why they started pouring in as soon as he “supposedly “ was elected) it’s all about getting more votes NOT compassion. Studies have already shown Republicans donate more than Democrats so I’m sick and tired of the accusations that because we want control over our borders we are haters. That is a false accusation.

The open borders caused by the previous administration, made the government complicit in the largest purveyors of horrific drug, human and sex trafficking in the world. Sex trafficking that included children. I don't condone any government breaking laws, but those who were silent about those horrific facts, now all of a sudden are concerned about the government breaking laws.

[Szdfan]

If we are only willing to live under the rule of earthly powers that are free from ambition and violence, is there anywhere could we go?

They are the "powers that be" not necessarily the "powers that ought to be."

The entire history of the world is a history of human migration and conflict and of stronger groups imposing their will over weaker groups. Starting with the very earliest written texts like Exodus and the Iliad and continuing on up to this day (Ukraine, Gaza, Uyghurs, the Congo, Sudan, Syria, etc.)

I don’t think it is possible to live anywhere in this world that is free of any history of conflict, exploitation, or violence. No such place exists. But I think we can be more humble and aware of our own histories and more generous towards those who have been displaced and exploited, either by our ancestors or others. That seems to me to be the fundamental message of Jesus.

I live on land that was stolen from the Chinook and Cowlitz peoples along the Columbia. Who no doubt took it from others going on back into pre-history. Does that mean I plan to give it back? No. That ship has sailed. But it does mean I try to be thoughtful and generous towards others who have less and who may be seeking refuge in the lands that I temporarily occupy along with other Americans. As well as to the descendants of the original inhabitants of this land. I think that is exactly what Jesus teaches.

That’s why we have a legal process. Jesus never encouraged breaking the law.

Jesus did break the law. He violated religious laws when he healed the sick on the Sabbath or when he touched leppers. The Romans executed him as a criminal.

[Valerie]

The entire history of the world is a history of human migration and conflict and of stronger groups imposing their will over weaker groups. Starting with the very earliest written texts like Exodus and the Iliad and continuing on up to this day (Ukraine, Gaza, Uyghurs, the Congo, Sudan, Syria, etc.)

I don’t think it is possible to live anywhere in this world that is free of any history of conflict, exploitation, or violence. No such place exists. But I think we can be more humble and aware of our own histories and more generous towards those who have been displaced and exploited, either by our ancestors or others. That seems to me to be the fundamental message of Jesus.

I live on land that was stolen from the Chinook and Cowlitz peoples along the Columbia. Who no doubt took it from others going on back into pre-history. Does that mean I plan to give it back? No. That ship has sailed. But it does mean I try to be thoughtful and generous towards others who have less and who may be seeking refuge in the lands that I temporarily occupy along with other Americans. As well as to the descendants of the original inhabitants of this land. I think that is exactly what Jesus teaches.

That’s why we have a legal process. Jesus never encouraged breaking the law.

Jesus did break the law. He violated religious laws when he healed the sick on the Sabbath or when he touched leppers. The Romans executed him as a criminal.

Oh please. You simply are not aware of why this administration is trying to protect the country he was elected to. That’s a silly comparison.

[Ken]

That’s why we have a legal process. Jesus never encouraged breaking the law.

We no longer have a legal process of any kind.

What we have instead is a government breaking the law right and left to achieve their political objectives because they found the legal process too inconvenient and constraining.

It’s a shame Biden created this whole terrible situation just to get votes from illegal citizens (yes that’s why they started pouring in as soon as he “supposedly “ was elected) it’s all about getting more votes NOT compassion. Studies have already shown Republicans donate more than Democrats so I’m sick and tired of the accusations that because we want control over our borders we are haters. That is a false accusation.

Do you actually believe any of what you just wrote?

Tell me. What exactly is an “illegal citizen”?

Is that the new right wing euphemism for non-white people voting?