Non-denominational seminaries and church groups

[barnhart]

It’s quite common in the conservative Mennonite/Annabaptist world to see an influential and/or ambitious man to start “his own” church. These are never affiliated with any broader church group/conference/fellowship. They enjoy no oversight. Often characterized by a lot of short term attendees and further splinters when the people disagree with the leader and there is no course of action to mediate from the broader conference.

How many of these have you observed.

I can think of 5-6 in my state. For comparison, in the same years, probably no more than this number have been started with traditional congressional or fellowship oversight.

That is extraordinary. I haven't seen that dynamic in action very often, maybe once except the fellowship is still operational having long outlasted the founder.

[ohio jones]

I can think of 5-6 in my state. For comparison, in the same years, probably no more than this number have been started with traditional congressional or fellowship oversight.

If you want to discuss politics, do so in the politics section per forum rules. This is a politics free thread.

[JohnH]

There’s one not too far from me that was essentially an “independent” hybrid Beachy / Charity started by 3 leaders who didn’t line the Beachy and Charity structure.

Eventually one left and made his own group which affiliated with BMA. The other two seem to have gone extinct within the past year or two.

[R7ehr]

I can think of 5-6 in my state. For comparison, in the same years, probably no more than this number have been started with traditional congressional or fellowship oversight.

If you want to discuss politics, do so in the politics section per forum rules. This is a politics free thread.

Congregational

[Neto]

I spent most of my life in Baptist churches, might as well have been non-denominational evangelical churches. I would say, in addition to the two possibilities that Barnhart suggested, that the pull of non-denominationalism could also be a sort of ecumenism. Not being a part of a denomination gives a feeling of freedom of finding brotherhood with many different groups. For myself growing up, I saw a wide range of Evangelical institutions as equally viable for me to make my home. Colleges, churches, parachurch orgs. Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc.

I think there is something else going on as well. Around here in this part of the world, nondenominational churches tend to be the projects of egotistical empire-builder type preachers who are seeking to build their own personal religious empire. A typical big Baptist church is an established institution that will hire ministers who come and go but who are not larger than the church itself. Mennonite churches are very much the same. Whereas many nondenominational churches are the personal project of one single preacher who is building his own empire. And without who the church will often basically collapse.

For example, here in Vancouver we had a big nondenominational Megachurch called the Living Hope Church founded by a preacher named John Lee Bishop that expanded into an empty former K-Mart in a suburban strip mall where they had several thousand show for the show every Sunday. And it was a show with things like live tigers and airplanes in the building. But as it turned out John Lee Bishop got caught up in drug smuggling for a Mexican cartel that was a months long front page scandal here in Vancouver during his trial and imprisonment. Apparently will soon be a Hollywood movie starring Christian Bale. The story has to be read to be believed: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -book.html

Last time I drove by that spot there was no sign that a church had ever been there and the building is now an indoor trampoline park. That would not happen with a denominational church like Baptist or Methodist or Mennonite. A pastor might get caught up in scandal, but the church would still exist and move on and just find someone new to step into leadership. Because denominational churches are larger than just one person.

Regarding the section I set in bold type above:
It probably doesn't normally happen, but I know of a case where a pastor serving at a small MB congregation was also involved in service at a rehab center for male juveniles. He attempted to give correction to a teen boy, who retaliated by accusing the pastor of sexual abuse. The story hit the front page in the city's newspaper. The pastor was eventually cleared by a police investigation, but notice of that only appeared in a small note buried somewhere in the back of the newspaper. The pastor's reputation and ministry was ruined, and the small congregation could not survive, and closed. And he was not even the main pastor there.

[JohnH]

Regarding the section I set in bold type above:
It probably doesn't normally happen, but I know of a case where a pastor serving at a small MB congregation was also involved in service at a rehab center for male juveniles. He attempted to give correction to a teen boy, who retaliated by accusing the pastor of sexual abuse. The story hit the front page in the city's newspaper. The pastor was eventually cleared by a police investigation, but notice of that only appeared in a small note buried somewhere in the back of the newspaper. The pastor's reputation and ministry was ruined, and the small congregation could not survive, and closed. And he was not even the main pastor there.

Sounds like a very good reason not to get involved with anything involving juveniles who know they can use false accusations as leverage.

[Neto]

Regarding the section I set in bold type above:
It probably doesn't normally happen, but I know of a case where a pastor serving at a small MB congregation was also involved in service at a rehab center for male juveniles. He attempted to give correction to a teen boy, who retaliated by accusing the pastor of sexual abuse. The story hit the front page in the city's newspaper. The pastor was eventually cleared by a police investigation, but notice of that only appeared in a small note buried somewhere in the back of the newspaper. The pastor's reputation and ministry was ruined, and the small congregation could not survive, and closed. And he was not even the main pastor there.

Sounds like a very good reason not to get involved with anything involving juveniles who know they can use false accusations as leverage.

As in marriage counselling, there should always be at least two people involved in such ministries. I realize, however, that even that doesn't provide a complete guarantee. But those young people are also lost people for whom Christ died. Many types of ministry carry certain risks.

[JohnH]

Regarding the section I set in bold type above:
It probably doesn't normally happen, but I know of a case where a pastor serving at a small MB congregation was also involved in service at a rehab center for male juveniles. He attempted to give correction to a teen boy, who retaliated by accusing the pastor of sexual abuse. The story hit the front page in the city's newspaper. The pastor was eventually cleared by a police investigation, but notice of that only appeared in a small note buried somewhere in the back of the newspaper. The pastor's reputation and ministry was ruined, and the small congregation could not survive, and closed. And he was not even the main pastor there.

Sounds like a very good reason not to get involved with anything involving juveniles who know they can use false accusations as leverage.

As in marriage counselling, there should always be at least two people involved in such ministries. I realize, however, that even that doesn't provide a complete guarantee. But those young people are also lost people for whom Christ died. Many types of ministry carry certain risks.

Lots of professional counsellors work solo.

Having two people working isn’t much of a guarantee. It’s simply too risky to work with juveniles who realize they can make false accusations on today’s environment. It is not worth the immense cost to one’s self and one’s family to defend against a false accusation.

[Ken]

Sounds like a very good reason not to get involved with anything involving juveniles who know they can use false accusations as leverage.

As in marriage counselling, there should always be at least two people involved in such ministries. I realize, however, that even that doesn't provide a complete guarantee. But those young people are also lost people for whom Christ died. Many types of ministry carry certain risks.

Lots of professional counsellors work solo.

Having two people working isn’t much of a guarantee. It’s simply too risky to work with juveniles who realize they can make false accusations on today’s environment. It is not worth the immense cost to one’s self and one’s family to defend against a false accusation.

Or you know…

You can just film or record all your sessions. And have documentation of every moment.

[JohnH]

As in marriage counselling, there should always be at least two people involved in such ministries. I realize, however, that even that doesn't provide a complete guarantee. But those young people are also lost people for whom Christ died. Many types of ministry carry certain risks.

Lots of professional counsellors work solo.

Having two people working isn’t much of a guarantee. It’s simply too risky to work with juveniles who realize they can make false accusations on today’s environment. It is not worth the immense cost to one’s self and one’s family to defend against a false accusation.

Or you know…

You can just film or record all your sessions. And have documentation of every moment.

Which won’t do anything about an accusation something happened when you weren’t making a recording.