Prayers for the Catholic Church

[JohnH]

I'd be interested to see if Ken can articulate an example of a scenario where this law could actually cause an undesirable or harmful effect - and for JohnH to give us an example of a scenario where this law could potentially do some good.

A priest decides to break the confessional seal, is excommunicated, but communicates something to law enforcement that stops a terrible terrorist attack, or a horrible abuse / trafficking ring, and for some odd reason the persons involved were so religious and legalistic that they actually thought they should go to confession about the things they were doing.

[JohnH]

Instead of that conversation it is usually silence until they pop up to claim some exemption to a law that everyone else has no objection to following. Would we put up with public school teachers or administrators claiming a religious exemption to reporting child sex abuse? No we would absolutely not.

Does "everyone else" include the Orthodox church, which also objected to this law and has the same sacrament of confession, which they call the mystery of repentance?

[Ken]

Instead of that conversation it is usually silence until they pop up to claim some exemption to a law that everyone else has no objection to following. Would we put up with public school teachers or administrators claiming a religious exemption to reporting child sex abuse? No we would absolutely not.

Does "everyone else" include the Orthodox church, which also objected to this law and has the same sacrament of confession, which they call the mystery of repentance?

Of course. Although the Catholic Church involved with the education and ministry to 100x more children in this country than the Orthodox Church. In fact, the Catholic Church is the second biggest educational organization in this country after the public schools. So it would be logical for them to take the lead would it not?

Instead of telling us what they CAN'T do, perhaps they can tell us what the CAN to do take the lead in fighting this scourge in our society. Maybe they can set the example for the public schools instead of the other way around.

[ken_sylvania]

Instead of that conversation it is usually silence until they pop up to claim some exemption to a law that everyone else has no objection to following. Would we put up with public school teachers or administrators claiming a religious exemption to reporting child sex abuse? No we would absolutely not.

Does "everyone else" include the Orthodox church, which also objected to this law and has the same sacrament of confession, which they call the mystery of repentance?

Of course. Although the Catholic Church involved with the education and ministry to 100x more children in this country than the Orthodox Church. In fact, the Catholic Church is the second biggest educational organization in this country after the public schools. So it would be logical for them to take the lead would it not?

Instead of telling us what they CAN'T do, perhaps they can tell us what the CAN to do take the lead in fighting this scourge in our society. Maybe they can set the example for the public schools instead of the other way around.

Then why is the Orthodox joining the lawsuit challenging the law - if they have no objection to following it?

[Ken]

Does "everyone else" include the Orthodox church, which also objected to this law and has the same sacrament of confession, which they call the mystery of repentance?

Of course. Although the Catholic Church involved with the education and ministry to 100x more children in this country than the Orthodox Church. In fact, the Catholic Church is the second biggest educational organization in this country after the public schools. So it would be logical for them to take the lead would it not?

Instead of telling us what they CAN'T do, perhaps they can tell us what the CAN to do take the lead in fighting this scourge in our society. Maybe they can set the example for the public schools instead of the other way around.

Then why is the Orthodox joining the lawsuit challenging the law - if they have no objection to following it?

Sorry, I'm losing track of the point I was responding to.

So yes, it wasn't correct to say that ONLY the Catholic Church is objecting to the law. That was a mis-statement on my part. It is both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church. Or at least elements within each church since this isn't coming from the Vatican or ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople, but rather some local Bishops in Washington.

But also yes, both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church should be coming forward to show leadership and examples of what they CAN to do take the lead on fighting child abuse and sexual exploitation. Especially if they want an exemption from a law that everyone else is required to comply with.

[ken_sylvania]

Of course. Although the Catholic Church involved with the education and ministry to 100x more children in this country than the Orthodox Church. In fact, the Catholic Church is the second biggest educational organization in this country after the public schools. So it would be logical for them to take the lead would it not?

Instead of telling us what they CAN'T do, perhaps they can tell us what the CAN to do take the lead in fighting this scourge in our society. Maybe they can set the example for the public schools instead of the other way around.

Then why is the Orthodox joining the lawsuit challenging the law - if they have no objection to following it?

Sorry, I'm losing track of the point I was responding to.

So yes, it wasn't correct to say that ONLY the Catholic Church is objecting to the law. That was a mis-statement on my part. It is both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church. Or at least elements within each church since this isn't coming from the Vatican or ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople, but rather some local Bishops in Washington.

But also yes, both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church should be coming forward to show leadership and examples of what they CAN to do take the lead on fighting child abuse and sexual exploitation. Especially if they want an exemption from a law that everyone else is required to comply with.

And has the Catholic Church done anything at all in the last five or ten years to start to take action on such things?

[Ken]

Then why is the Orthodox joining the lawsuit challenging the law - if they have no objection to following it?

Sorry, I'm losing track of the point I was responding to.

So yes, it wasn't correct to say that ONLY the Catholic Church is objecting to the law. That was a mis-statement on my part. It is both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church. Or at least elements within each church since this isn't coming from the Vatican or ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople, but rather some local Bishops in Washington.

But also yes, both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church should be coming forward to show leadership and examples of what they CAN to do take the lead on fighting child abuse and sexual exploitation. Especially if they want an exemption from a law that everyone else is required to comply with.

And has the Catholic Church done anything at all in the last five or ten years to start to take action on such things?

They have been trying to root out pedophiles in their own ranks to some extent. But beyond that what are they doing to set an example and take a lead in the fight against sex abuse of children in the wider world? Which is what this law is about. You tell me. I don't see it happening.

[JayP]

Once again, this law IMHO has NOTHING to do with effectively adding a tool in fighting abuse.
I do not see what practical consequence can come from this law.
It is the equivalent of saying “If you are lying to yourself, and do not tell us you are lying to yourself, we can prosecute you”.

No one is EVER going to be prosecuted Under this law.
It is simply getting something “on the books” to break down long established accommodations to religious practices.

[Ken]

Once again, this law IMHO has NOTHING to do with effectively adding a tool in fighting abuse.
I do not see what practical consequence can come from this law.
It is the equivalent of saying “If you are lying to yourself, and do not tell us you are lying to yourself, we can prosecute you”.

No one is EVER going to be prosecuted Under this law.
It is simply getting something “on the books” to break down long established accommodations to religious practices.

Once again, this law is not centered on the Catholic Church. The event that generated the momentum for this update to the child abuse reporting statute was a massive sex abuse scandal in the Jehovah's Witness church where there were hundreds of abuse victims that church authorities knew about and reported none of them. Not one.

The law simply brings Washington into the modern world to join the other 48 or so states that already have child abuse reporting requirements for clergy. If clergy in Washington and elsewhere didn't hold themselves out to be trusted counselors, educators, and ministers to children this would be a non-issue.

[temporal1]

Refreshing where this discussion began:
Without reading reports, discussion is empty.

Thankfully the courts are expected to READ+CONSIDER THE SUBMITTED CASE FOR CONTENT before ruling.

Not just dig into political/ideological sides for partisan bullying.

It reminds of when obama+hillary both (cough, magnanimously) described how they “were fine” with Christianity - - as long as it complied with their (secular and political) beliefs. Thankfully, hillary did not go on to become a Methodist preacher.

P.8:

2025 / Pope Leo XIV begins

National Catholic Register / “Washington State Attacks the Seal of Confession”
EDITORIAL: It’s long-standing and settled law in the U.S. that priest-penitent discussions are privileged private communications that can be withheld from legal authorities.
https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries ... confession

National Review / Trump Administration Investigating Washington Law That Coerces Priests into Breaking Confessional Seal
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/tru ... onal-seal/
^^i agree it warrants investigation.

Washington State Standard / New law requires clergy in Washington to report child abuse
https://washingtonstatestandard.com/202 ... ild-abuse/
^^This report doesn’t reference formal confession, it doesn’t mention exemption for the seal of confession.

i see this as a very serious matter.
A situation of “good intentions” by the ignorant causing untold damage, without accomplishing any good.
Abusers LIE, and much more. This will guarantee lies.

From what i’ve read, many states require Catholic leaders and teachers to be mandatory reporters, with the exception of formal confession.

i expect this to go to SCOTUS.