JayP wrote: ↑Sat Jun 14, 2025 7:50 am
Interesting. Odd question. Are any of Stephen Ebersole’s sons in the ministry?
I believe several are. One was recently silenced. His 3 youngest sons, I am told, have joined the (Greek?) Orthodox Church
This caught my attention, and I checked to see if any sermons on Pilgrim Conference's website address Eastern Orthodoxy. Sure enough, there is a sermon. I thought it was very interesting. The speaker is a current or former missionary in Romania which has a large Orthodox presence. I don't think the speaker is Pilgrim. https://pilgrimministry.org/sermons/wha ... dox-church
In the next few posts, I am pasting some of the transcript that I thought was interesting.
I was asked to speak on what is sometimes called the high religions, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the like, because there is, and I think for good reason, an interest in those kind of things. things among the conservative Anabaptist people of today. Now, I am going to focus on Eastern Orthodoxy for two reasons. Number one, that's the one with which I am most familiar. Uh, living in Romania, you can't get away from it. It's everywhere. And secondly, it is, in my opinion, the only one of those that I would really give much credibility to in the first place. Uh, I think there is more to be said for Eastern Orthodoxy than for Catholicism, Anglicanism, and the others.
When we build churches as conservative Anabaptists, we are a very practical people. We don't really get into all this stuff. I mean, let's make it practical. Let's make it useful and that's all. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being practical. However, there is a beauty in symbolism that I feel we as conservative Anabaptist can lose. God, like I already mentioned, use a lot of symbolism. And I think there's something we can learn from that. There is a beauty in symbolism. Not only is there a beauty in symbolism because of our practicality, it has changed some of our belief systems. For example, many conservative Anabaptists will tell you baptism is nothing in and of itself. Doesn't matter. I mean, you immerse or you pour or whatever you want to do. Uh but it's just a symbol of what has already happened. Is that biblical? The Bible tells us that baptism saves us and then it specifies not the physical act itself. At Jesus' baptism, something significant happened in the spiritual world. Did Jesus become the son of God at that point? No, I don't think so. Yet, there was something significant happening behind the scenes. The Orthodox and the Catholics would say there is something much deeper in baptism than just this is a symbol. And I with that I would tend to agree with them. I think because of our practicality We have walked away from some of that. Same thing with communion. We just remember. That's all there is to it. We remember. There's Now, I'm not a fan of transubstantiation. Don't get me wrong. However, I think there is something much deeper in it than what we often give credit to. The importance of symbolism.
And the early Anabaptist, the early church, they saw it as scripture and I don't know it and I think that's unfortunate. So, we've started studying the Apocrypha. I would encourage you to think deeply about that. It wasn't until very recently that the Apocrypha was taken out of our Bible. I don't I think you can most certainly be a follower of Jesus without knowing the apocrypha. Don't get me wrong. However, I think it's a part of the scripture that we miss just one thing with that. We said, Alex and I started studying the book of Tobit, which is the first book in the Apocrypha. And Alex told me soon before I left, I didn't even know this, that most people think that when the Pharisees came and asked Jesus about the woman that had seven husband, What did Jesus tell him? You know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. What do you mean you don't know the scriptures? Well, they were referring to the book of Tobit. A woman that had seven husbands and they all were killed. But that's not the end of the story. The eighth one didn't die. It's not last of all. The woman died also. You don't know the scriptures nor the power of God. And he goes on to explain what he meant. But those are some of the things that we miss because we don't know that stuff. So, I had to save that one to the end because if you kicked me out of here, at least you got the rest of it. Uh, but I think it's something that we as conservative Anabaptists miss. I encourage you if you don't have an a copy of the Apocrypha, get one and read it. It is fascinating. And for most of church history, it was universally taken as a part of the scripture until just several hundred years ago.
As someone who has lived with one foot in the orthodox world I am a bit torn by modern developments.
On the one hand l think Orthodoxy has must to offer. And I can understand it’s appeal.
On the other hand, the recent increased interest from many in Orthodoxy means an influx of folks that can stress existing congregations and overload the convert road.
Good thing Gods in charge and not me!
I think folks will be surprised by the amount of standing they are gonna experience!
While there is a lot about EO that appeals to me, the fatal flaw is, I can never join a faith tradition that blesses the fellow members killing each other, ie Ukraine and Russia.
A year or two ago, we had an EO clergy member come and speak to their faith tradition at our school in one of our classes. He gave a compelling personal faith story. I discussed with him for awhile the above. A few months later his friend that connected us said to me that he has been very troubled by this piece of the faith tradition.
In order for Anabaptists to convert to Orthodoxy, they must…
1. accept the authority of Sacred Tradition, including the decisions of the seven Ecumenical Councils (e.g., Nicaea, Constantinople) and the role of the Church Fathers in interpreting Scripture.
2. give up their belief that the church should be a voluntary community of regenerate believers and be ok with the concept of having both wheat and tares in the church and believe that the tares do not diminish the authenticity of the church (Historically, Anabaptists have believed that there might be both wheat and tares in the church, but if there are tares in the church, it can really weaken the church or even cause its candlestick to be removed. Historically, Anabaptists have believed that a church can only avoid culpability if the tares (sin) were hidden and if they are removed once it comes to light.)
3. be ok with infant baptism
4. be ok with the Real Presence view of communion
5. give up many of their own rituals and ordinances and accept Orthodoxy’s rituals, ordinances, and seven Holy Sacraments
6. give up their belief that only God honoring, charactered men may hold leadership positions in the church and instead be able to tolerate ungodly men holding high positions in the church
7. accept the visible, institutional Church, its Ecumenical Hierarchical leadership (including submission to the Hierarchical Patriarch) and accept the concept of apostolic succession tracing back to the apostles
8. embrace liturgical worship, the veneration of icons, and the use of ritual elements like incense and vestments
9. accept the veneration of Mary and the saints, including praying to them for intercession
10. be ok with a church that allows members to kill and harm others, and leaders of the church who support militaries and heads of state who engage in mass violence
11. believe that narrative that the Orthodox Church has been improving its theology and practice over the centuries (as compared with the first centuries) rather than believing that the Orthodox church has adopted all sorts of unorthodox teachings, and established many unbiblical, unorthodox practices.
What other main points am I missing?
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
In addition, conservative Anabaptists would have to accept:
- accepting that ordained men attend seminaries/college first
- accepting alcohol consumption and drunkenness, including renting out the church hall to others where alcohol will be consumed to excess
- accepting immodest & worldly attire for women
- accepting tobacco / vaping consumption
In addition Orthodoxy is essentially an “ethnic” faith, but different ethnicities than Anabaptists typically come from.