Gender confusion

[JohnH]

Everyone is hypocritical on their own issues. Republicans who are super into parental rights and medical autonomy/privacy when it comes to say COVID vaccines and outraged when the state intervenes against their will, forget all their values when it comes to transgender medication. Likewise, Democrats who oppose parental rights when it comes to teens and abortion or vaccine mandates are suddenly big believers in parental rights and outraged when the state intervenes against their will when it comes to transgender medication.

So it goes.

Ken,

Are you unable to distinguish the difference between those two things?

Simple question. Do you believe parents should have the right to make medical decisions for their children? Yes or no?

I think parents should have the right to refuse medical treatments they don't want, and indeed every person should have the right to refuse medical treatments. That's a matter of basic bodily autonomy.

I don't think parents should be able to perform any "medical" treatment on their children they wish, such as ones that are quite harmful. An example of this is that we don't allow female circumcision in America, even though it is quite culturally normal in many parts of the world, and in those cultures people think it is medically necessary.

I hope you can understand the difference between those two things.

[Ken]

Ken,

Are you unable to distinguish the difference between those two things?

Simple question. Do you believe parents should have the right to make medical decisions for their children? Yes or no?

I think parents should have the right to refuse medical treatments they don't want, and indeed every person should have the right to refuse medical treatments. That's a matter of basic bodily autonomy.

I don't think parents should be able to perform any "medical" treatment on their children they wish, such as ones that are quite harmful. An example of this is that we don't allow female circumcision in America, even though it is quite culturally normal in many parts of the world, and in those cultures people think it is medically necessary.

I hope you can understand the difference between those two things.

We allow parents to decide to put their children at unnecessary risk of blindness, deafness, permanent paralysis, and even death by choosing not to get them vaccinated. I disagree with parents who allow their children to die of an easily preventable disease like measles. And if anti-vaxers have their way, perhaps polio again too. But I recognize they have a right to make that decision.

We also allow doctors with the consent of parents to prescribe their children a wide variety of hormones and hormone blockers for a wide variety of reasons from early onset puberty, endometriosis, to control of heavy painful menstruation. As well as all manner of developmental disorders and intersex conditions. Even some cancer treatments for hormone-sensitive cancers. We also allow children to get all manner of cosmetic plastic surgery with parental consent. From nose jobs and breast augmentations or reductions to a wide variety of other cosmetic and reconstructive surgeries. None of this is controversial for non-trans children. And some of it is very common. In fact there aren’t any medications used by trans people that aren’t commonly used by non-trans people. And the proper place to regulate their use for all reasons is through the medical profession, not state legislatures.

The only reason you and others object to these common medications being used by trans children (or adults) is some combination of religion and prejudice. Which are acceptable reasons to object to their use on your own children or children under your guardianship. They are not reasons to insert your beliefs into the decisions of others who do not share them. For the same reason that my beliefs about the responsibility of parents to protect their children against easily prevented deadly diseases does not override their decisions to decide otherwise for their own personal reasons.

It really isn’t that complicated. We either believe in parental rights or we do not. I happen to believe there is a very high bar. And if children truly object to the decisions of their parents we have a process of minor emancipation that they can pursue. Or sometimes the courts can intervene to save the actual life of a child in some cases if the parents refuse to provide life savings care. But those instances should be and are very rare.

[temporal1]

Ken:
.. We also allow children to get all manner of cosmetic plastic surgery with parental consent. From nose jobs and breast augmentations or reductions to a wide variety of other cosmetic and reconstructive surgeries. .. ..

Not funded with taxpayer dollars, not funded by health insurance.
Personally, there are a few procedures i would benefit from that NO WAY would be paid by taxpayers or health insurance.
i was at an appointment yesterday, told i needed **** work ($14,000) - no way i can afford it, no way gov or health ins will cover it.

i will do without.
not the end of the world. millions accept the same, doing without - everywhere in the world. $$$$

This is another example of certain groups wanting/demanding VERY SPECIAL rights, not equal rights.

Ken:
.. The only reason you and others object .. ..

your personal moral judgment of others, not fact. imo, just more

There are now 88 pages of discussion about this in Gender Confusion / viewtopic.php?t=4689
Including reports of some countries in Europe who have reversed former policies, HAVING LEARNED of negative results.

Learning can be hard+slow, esp wrt gov policies, but not entirely impossible.

When gov experiments fail, there should be methods to identify failure, then correct or eliminate.
This should be ROUTINE, not simply increase spending and expand.

[JohnH]

Simple question. Do you believe parents should have the right to make medical decisions for their children? Yes or no?

I think parents should have the right to refuse medical treatments they don't want, and indeed every person should have the right to refuse medical treatments. That's a matter of basic bodily autonomy.

I don't think parents should be able to perform any "medical" treatment on their children they wish, such as ones that are quite harmful. An example of this is that we don't allow female circumcision in America, even though it is quite culturally normal in many parts of the world, and in those cultures people think it is medically necessary.

I hope you can understand the difference between those two things.

We allow parents to decide to put their children at unnecessary risk of blindness, deafness, permanent paralysis, and even death by choosing not to get them vaccinated. I disagree with parents who allow their children to die of an easily preventable disease like measles. And if anti-vaxers have their way, perhaps polio again too. But I recognize they have a right to make that decision.

We also allow doctors with the consent of parents to prescribe their children a wide variety of hormones and hormone blockers for a wide variety of reasons from early onset puberty, endometriosis, to control of heavy painful menstruation. As well as all manner of developmental disorders and intersex conditions. Even some cancer treatments for hormone-sensitive cancers. We also allow children to get all manner of cosmetic plastic surgery with parental consent. From nose jobs and breast augmentations or reductions to a wide variety of other cosmetic and reconstructive surgeries. None of this is controversial for non-trans children. And some of it is very common. In fact there aren’t any medications used by trans people that aren’t commonly used by non-trans people. And the proper place to regulate their use for all reasons is through the medical profession, not state legislatures.

The only reason you and others object to these common medications being used by trans children (or adults) is some combination of religion and prejudice. Which are acceptable reasons to object to their use on your own children or children under your guardianship. They are not reasons to insert your beliefs into the decisions of others who do not share them. For the same reason that my beliefs about the responsibility of parents to protect their children against easily prevented deadly diseases does not override their decisions to decide otherwise for their own personal reasons.

It really isn’t that complicated. We either believe in parental rights or we do not. I happen to believe there is a very high bar. And if children truly object to the decisions of their parents we have a process of minor emancipation that they can pursue. Or sometimes the courts can intervene to save the actual life of a child in some cases if the parents refuse to provide life savings care. But those instances should be and are very rare.

Again, you are describing two different things. Things like puberty blockers because a parent thinks their child is the “wrong sec” cause permanent lifelong damage and are an intervention that has no valid, legitimate medical basis.

Not vaccinating one’s children (for example) is something humans have done for thousands of years and is an entirely legitimate, valid decision.

[Ken]

I think parents should have the right to refuse medical treatments they don't want, and indeed every person should have the right to refuse medical treatments. That's a matter of basic bodily autonomy.

I don't think parents should be able to perform any "medical" treatment on their children they wish, such as ones that are quite harmful. An example of this is that we don't allow female circumcision in America, even though it is quite culturally normal in many parts of the world, and in those cultures people think it is medically necessary.

I hope you can understand the difference between those two things.

We allow parents to decide to put their children at unnecessary risk of blindness, deafness, permanent paralysis, and even death by choosing not to get them vaccinated. I disagree with parents who allow their children to die of an easily preventable disease like measles. And if anti-vaxers have their way, perhaps polio again too. But I recognize they have a right to make that decision.

We also allow doctors with the consent of parents to prescribe their children a wide variety of hormones and hormone blockers for a wide variety of reasons from early onset puberty, endometriosis, to control of heavy painful menstruation. As well as all manner of developmental disorders and intersex conditions. Even some cancer treatments for hormone-sensitive cancers. We also allow children to get all manner of cosmetic plastic surgery with parental consent. From nose jobs and breast augmentations or reductions to a wide variety of other cosmetic and reconstructive surgeries. None of this is controversial for non-trans children. And some of it is very common. In fact there aren’t any medications used by trans people that aren’t commonly used by non-trans people. And the proper place to regulate their use for all reasons is through the medical profession, not state legislatures.

The only reason you and others object to these common medications being used by trans children (or adults) is some combination of religion and prejudice. Which are acceptable reasons to object to their use on your own children or children under your guardianship. They are not reasons to insert your beliefs into the decisions of others who do not share them. For the same reason that my beliefs about the responsibility of parents to protect their children against easily prevented deadly diseases does not override their decisions to decide otherwise for their own personal reasons.

It really isn’t that complicated. We either believe in parental rights or we do not. I happen to believe there is a very high bar. And if children truly object to the decisions of their parents we have a process of minor emancipation that they can pursue. Or sometimes the courts can intervene to save the actual life of a child in some cases if the parents refuse to provide life savings care. But those instances should be and are very rare.

Again, you are describing two different things. Things like puberty blockers because a parent thinks their child is the “wrong sec” cause permanent lifelong damage and are an intervention that has no valid, legitimate medical basis.

Not vaccinating one’s children (for example) is something humans have done for thousands of years and is an entirely legitimate, valid decision.

Parental rights are parental rights. It is nothing but hypocrisy to draw lines around your own pet issues whether you are on the left or right.

[JohnH]

Parental rights are parental rights. It is nothing but hypocrisy to draw lines around your own pet issues whether you are on the left or right.

It has nothing to do with my "pet issues".

Parents should be free to refuse medical interventions in their children, including stabbing them with needles.

Parents should not be allowed to mutilate their children.

[temporal1]

It has nothing to do with my "pet issues".
Parents should be free to refuse medical interventions in their children, including stabbing them with needles.

Parents should not be allowed to mutilate their children.

Legal rights are not absolute.
Thus the existence of profitable law schools and courts. And BUILDINGS filled with legal documents and books.

Interesting to imagine “^^all that” compared to 1 Holy enduring Bible. It’s staggering to consider.

[ken_sylvania]

Parental rights are parental rights. It is nothing but hypocrisy to draw lines around your own pet issues whether you are on the left or right.

It has nothing to do with my "pet issues".

Parents should be free to refuse medical interventions in their children, including stabbing them with needles.

Parents should not be allowed to mutilate their children.

Are you suggesting circumcision should be banned?

[JohnH]

Parental rights are parental rights. It is nothing but hypocrisy to draw lines around your own pet issues whether you are on the left or right.

It has nothing to do with my "pet issues".

Parents should be free to refuse medical interventions in their children, including stabbing them with needles.

Parents should not be allowed to mutilate their children.

Are you suggesting circumcision should be banned?

I am very opposed to female circumcision and think it should be banned.

I am not interested in publicly sharing my opinion on whether or not male circumcision should be banned.

[Ken]

Parental rights are parental rights. It is nothing but hypocrisy to draw lines around your own pet issues whether you are on the left or right.

It has nothing to do with my "pet issues".

Parents should be free to refuse medical interventions in their children, including stabbing them with needles.

Parents should not be allowed to mutilate their children.

There are a whole lot of people who disagree with you and don’t think parents should be allowed to negligently watch their own children die of easily preventable diseases. And who think what the Menno parents in Texas did, watching their children die, is tantamount to child murder. The children are dead due to the decisions of their parents.

We live in a society that preferences parental and family rights whether or not you agree. They are not YOUR children so you don’t get to decide. And we also allow adolescents to make decisions for themselves subject to the consent of their parents. Which is largely what this is about.