Southern Baptists Affirm Ban on SSM

[joshuabgood]

The issue isn’t a teenage boy making a comment. It’s a grown man retelling that moment in a sermon, affirming it, and sexualizing a teenage girl in the process. That’s not just poor judgment. That’s using spiritual authority to normalize objectification.

Is it wrong for teenage boys to be attracted to teenage girls? Try to stop saying “sexualizing a teenage girl” here; we’re all adults (presumably) and we all understand it’s not only normal but healthy for teenage boys to be attracted to teenage girls (or do you disagree with that?) and that, yes, sometimes teenage boys talk to other teenage boys about things, including girls they think are attractive.

Or do you think it’s wrong / immoral for that to happen?

If you’re more outraged by the phrase “lust of a child” than by a pastor using the pulpit to approve of teenage objectification, you’re telling on yourself. And the SBC eventually agreed and that’s why Patterson was removed.

I think exaggerating that moment into claiming the pastor had “lust of a child” (did he? I didn’t see any evidence of that) is problematic, particularly since when people here this kind of exaggeration, they stop taking claims something bad is happening seriously.

What a strange and creepy hill to die on.

I think it’s entirely normal for teenage boys and teenage girls to be attracted to each other.

I think it’s entirely abnormal for men to try to marry other men and engage in unspeakable immoral sins with other men.

To me it is obvious from the video that Paige was describing a "young girl not more than 16" as "really built" and playing it for laughs over the pulpit. That is sexualizing and objectifying a child. And then affirming it overtly by saying this way of speaking about girls (not more than 16) is biblical and also playing that for laughs, is gross. And lastly making demeaning comments about a woman who had concerns about his preaching (which some how I am not surprised by) and simultaneously speaking with self-aggrandizement, and also playing that for laughs is also problematic. To add insult to injury is the fact that Paige was for literally decades held up as the messenger from God to right the SBC ship and bring them back to real religion and the socalled conservative resurgence. And these sorts of issues were not singular or isolated. He joked about women being beat up, he covered the crimes up of the known homosexual child abuser Paul Pressler (also an architect of the socalled conservative resurgence).

Furthermore, I am extremely doubtful that Paige's story ever even happened like that. The fact that he thought it was funny is also a tell. But hey, if you want to normalize that sort of behavior for ministers in your faith tradition then I guess you can. But don't expect me to come over to your understanding anytime soon.

And the reason I mention that in this thread is to juxtapose it against the OP. It rings hollow when the SBC politically postures against SSM when their two primary architects of the current movement are part of the disturbing sexual cultures that they are posturing against. Paige Patterson was literally present at this convention. And further, these two are not isolated examples. Johnny Hunt, David Sills, and many others as the Guidepost report documents, reflect this cancer in their own circles. Perhaps they would be better off focusing on cleaning their own house rather than pagan societies.

[barnhart]

I'm skeptical that Republicans really want to take on that battle again in a bunch of red states. But maybe I'm wrong.

Nothing gets voters energized more than a battle. I'm convinced that abortion was used primarily as a wedge issue to inspire voters to a fighting mentality and inspire more voter turnout... on BOTH sides of the aisle. I grew up hearing about it as an existential crisis among conservatives. Now I am hearing about it as an existential crisis from progressives. It's just fear-based political conflict.

I think transgender ideology has replaced abortion as the next existential crisis to struggle over. Abortion no longer commands the voting block it once did, that is why it was so easy for the Republicans to edge away from it.

From my point of view this is not necessarily good or bad, it might make more interventions possible. Once people stop fighting they can often find ways to work together.

[Ernie]

To me it is obvious from the video that Paige was describing a "young girl not more than 16" as "really built" and playing it for laughs over the pulpit. That is sexualizing and objectifying a child. And then affirming it overtly by saying this way of speaking about girls (not more than 16) is biblical and also playing that for laughs, is gross. And lastly making demeaning comments about a woman who had concerns about his preaching (which some how I am not surprised by) and simultaneously speaking with self-aggrandizement, and also playing that for laughs is also problematic. To add insult to injury is the fact that Paige was for literally decades held up as the messenger from God to right the SBC ship and bring them back to real religion and the socalled conservative resurgence. And these sorts of issues were not singular or isolated. He joked about women being beat up, he covered the crimes up of the known homosexual child abuser Paul Pressler (also an architect of the socalled conservative resurgence).

Furthermore, I am extremely doubtful that Paige's story ever even happened like that. The fact that he thought it was funny is also a tell. But hey, if you want to normalize that sort of behavior for ministers in your faith tradition then I guess you can. But don't expect me to come over to your understanding anytime soon.

I could not agree more.

And the reason I mention that in this thread is to juxtapose it against the OP. It rings hollow when the SBC politically postures against SSM when their two primary architects of the current movement are part of the disturbing sexual cultures that they are posturing against. Paige Patterson was literally present at this convention. And further, these two are not isolated examples. Johnny Hunt, David Sills, and many others as the Guidepost report documents, reflect this cancer in their own circles. Perhaps they would be better off focusing on cleaning their own house rather than pagan societies.

I agree, although I cannot say for any certainty to what degree SBC has or has not turned a corner on rooting out the cancer.

[barnhart]

I would have more sympathy for the Southern Baptist Convention if they had dealt with their own sexual sin openly instead of denying it, covering it up, attacking victims, attacking the characters of the righteous who wanted it addressed and driving out the voices calling for investigation. If they had established a high level of integrity around sexual sin, it would give them more voice to call out the sexual sin of society. As it is, I fear they look like hypocrites to the world.

[Ken]

This stuff is really a problem with Baptist leaders isn't it? Here's another Baptist minister giving a sermon to his congregation of 20,000 at the First Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana, which at that time was the largest megachurch in the state of Indiana and 11th largest in the US. Apparently this was one of his popular "go-to" sermons and not some one-off error in judgement: https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Maga ... st-Church/ And speaking of perving over 16-year-olds, this guy was later convicted in federal court and sentenced to 12 years for transporting a 16 year old girl across state lines to Michigan to engage in sex (statutory rape). He was also the chancellor of Hyles Anderson College https://hylesanderson.edu/ a small Baptist college. And during his time in prison he was caught by his wife doing conjugal visits with other "girlfriends" who he had met as prison pen pals so that blew up his marriage, which apparently a conviction for statutory rape and child sex trafficking didn't do. So, you know, a good Baptist role model to lecture others about the sanctity of marriage.

It turns out he was actually convicted of child pornography charges and entered a plea agreement, and somehow evaded state level prosecution in Illinois; there’s nothing illegal in Michigan about adults of any age engaging in fornication with 16 year olds, including “transporting across state lines”, so your statement is demonstrably false that he was convicted of “statutory rape”.

What is really amazing is that a denomination takes a stand against one form of immorality, and then you complain about a few instances of another kind of immorality. Every Baptist I have known where we’ve ever discussed it is very much opposed to fornication, pastors preying in teenagers, and other forms of immorality.

The age of consent is 18 in Michigan (as it is in most states) for any adult who has a fiduciary or trust relationship over the child (teacher, counselor, minister, corrections officer, police officer, etc.) which was the case here because he was her minister and giving her "counseling".

I don't know why he didn't face state charges. Perhaps because he faced Federal charges and a long prison sentence the various state attorneys decided it wasn't worth expending lots of state resources to try to pile on and convict him in state court as well when he would already be facing Federal prison time.

And given the number of Baptist leaders ensnared in child sex abuse scandals there are clearly plenty of them in leadership who don't have a problem with it.

[barnhart]

...
I think transgender ideology has replaced abortion as the next existential crisis to struggle over...

After further thought, I would add anti- immigration as a close second to inherit the mantle of primary culture war fodder.

[R7ehr]

To me it is obvious from the video that Paige was describing a "young girl not more than 16" as "really built" and playing it for laughs over the pulpit. That is sexualizing and objectifying a child. And then affirming it overtly by saying this way of speaking about girls (not more than 16) is biblical and also playing that for laughs, is gross. And lastly making demeaning comments about a woman who had concerns about his preaching (which some how I am not surprised by) and simultaneously speaking with self-aggrandizement, and also playing that for laughs is also problematic.

….

The fact that he thought it was funny is also a tell. But hey, if you want to normalize that sort of behavior for ministers in your faith tradition then I guess you can. But don't expect me to come over to your understanding anytime soon.

I agree.

Sure it’s natural for teenagers to be attracted to each other. But this preacher in the video comes off as pretty carnal and gross. Not setting a good example. And not meshing well with 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, or 1 Peter 5.

If the story was real, how was the mother and girl doing after hearing him talk like this?

[Szdfan]

To me it is obvious from the video that Paige was describing a "young girl not more than 16" as "really built" and playing it for laughs over the pulpit. That is sexualizing and objectifying a child. And then affirming it overtly by saying this way of speaking about girls (not more than 16) is biblical and also playing that for laughs, is gross. And lastly making demeaning comments about a woman who had concerns about his preaching (which some how I am not surprised by) and simultaneously speaking with self-aggrandizement, and also playing that for laughs is also problematic.

….

The fact that he thought it was funny is also a tell. But hey, if you want to normalize that sort of behavior for ministers in your faith tradition then I guess you can. But don't expect me to come over to your understanding anytime soon.

I agree.

Sure it’s natural for teenagers to be attracted to each other. But this preacher in the video comes off as pretty carnal and gross.

Exactly. The issue isn’t whether teenagers are attracted to each other, but that a grown man with spiritual authority thought it was funny and appropriate to use this as an example in a sermon.

Also noteworthy — when the teenage girl stands up for herself, Patterson rebukes her in the story by stating that the boys lustful reaction to her was “biblical.” He’s defending sexual harassment.

[Ken]

I'm skeptical that Republicans really want to take on that battle again in a bunch of red states. But maybe I'm wrong.

Nothing gets voters energized more than a battle. I'm convinced that abortion was used primarily as a wedge issue to inspire voters to a fighting mentality and inspire more voter turnout... on BOTH sides of the aisle. I grew up hearing about it as an existential crisis among conservatives. Now I am hearing about it as an existential crisis from progressives. It's just fear-based political conflict.

I think transgender ideology has replaced abortion as the next existential crisis to struggle over. Abortion no longer commands the voting block it once did, that is why it was so easy for the Republicans to edge away from it.

From my point of view this is not necessarily good or bad, it might make more interventions possible. Once people stop fighting they can often find ways to work together.

I have no idea where this is going. But to outlaw gay marriage it would take:

1. A Republican Supreme Court to reverse a previous Republican Supreme Court on this issue.
2. Republican legislators in red states to outlaw gay marriage

And even that would have little actual effect because there are already hundreds of thousands of gay people already living in red states who are already legally married in that state or some other state, and we would just be back to the old thing of people traveling to California or Nevada or wherever to get married.

I'm not questioning whether Southern Baptist leadership wants this fight. Clearly they do. I'm questioning whether it is something that the Republican party as a whole would want to even take on in red states should SCOTUS reverse itself. I have no idea but I sort of doubt it. Not all Republicans are Southern Baptists. Lots of them are more libertarian anti-tax types. Public approval of gay marriage is much higher today than it was 20 years ago when these fights were last happening. Usually when politicians take on culture war issues they pick ones that they think are popular with a majority of voters. That is sort of the point. I doubt this one would be.

[R7ehr]

If the story was real, how was the mother and girl doing after hearing him talk like this?

And if the story is not real, he is lying over the pulpit.