Bethel Church

[Ken]

I don’t think Faith Builders is selling the ability to perform miracles.

Neither is Bethel.

Have you been paying zero attention whatsoever? Of course they are. But don't believe me. Believe them. I went to the actual web site of the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministries (BSSM) (not second hand news coverage) and while they are somewhat coy, it took me 30 seconds to find them claiming to teach miracles. Here's a screen shot from their school web site. And the web site is absolutely packed with videos of student testimonials. The first one I clicked on was a 1st year student and she claimed to have participated in 8 different miraculous faith healings in the Dominican Republic, crippled people casting off braces and walking for the first time after being prayed over, stuff like that.

[Ernie]

Would you support a fund drive for a local fire company or EMS unit, or other orgs that are completely non-religious in nature?

I would rather support that than people who favor church and state holding hands. And even worse are those who want believers to take over government to control it like 7 mountain people. The first feels idolatrous and the latter satanic.

My thoughts are similar.

[JohnH]

Would you support a fund drive for a local fire company or EMS unit, or other orgs that are completely non-religious in nature?

I would rather support that than people who favor church and state holding hands. And even worse are those who want believers to take over government to control it like 7 mountain people. The first feels idolatrous and the latter satanic.

My thoughts are similar.

I would rather support Bethel over the “Glory Barn” any day. Both have false doctrine, but the Glory Barn is far worse. The latter also supports church and state holding hands, and in particular got very wrapped up in supporting Trump.

[JohnH]

I don’t think Faith Builders is selling the ability to perform miracles.

Neither is Bethel.

Have you been paying zero attention whatsoever? Of course they are. But don't believe me. Believe them. I went to the actual web site of the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministries (BSSM) (not second hand news coverage) and while they are somewhat coy, it took me 30 seconds to find them claiming to teach miracles. Here's a screen shot from their school web site. And the web site is absolutely packed with videos of student testimonials. The first one I clicked on was a 1st year student and she claimed to have participated in 8 different miraculous faith healings in the Dominican Republic, crippled people casting off braces and walking for the first time after being prayed over, stuff like that.

They are not “selling” the ability to perform miracles. They teach any Christian should believe they can pray to cast out demons, pray for healing and so on. Bethel churches have free “classes” sort of like Sunday School where they teach such things, free of charge.

BSSM is a very inexpensive full time Bible school program, the cost of which is less than the cost of housing in the places it is offered. It exists because of generous donors. People who can’t afford the tuition at all are also offered 100% scholarships. People who need to work full time and have too many family obligations to go are still encouraged to do the same stuff as BSSM.

Incidentally any charismatic church and most Pentecostal churches has the same set of beliefs. Would you accuse Indiana Bible College of “selling performing miracles too”? They have some classes on the supernatural.

[Ernie]

"students will learn how to" is very different from, "students will study the teachings of Jesus and will learn about Christians who have...".

And yes, students pay to learn this.

[Ernie]

Acquaintances who have grown up in charismatic settings talk about methods and tricks some faith healers "learn" from practitioners about how to fake healings and divert attention from healings that do not happen.

Many also "learn" how to credit things to the supernatural that are not supernatural. For example, physical therapists and chiropractors can "lengthen legs" through manual adjustments. Can God lengthen legs? Certainly! But not all leg lengthening is supernatural.

Whether or not Bethel does this, I don't know but I would be glad to know more about them on this topic.

[Ken]

Incidentally any charismatic church and most Pentecostal churches has the same set of beliefs. Would you accuse Indiana Bible College of “selling performing miracles too”? They have some classes on the supernatural.

Not familiar with them. But if they are doing the same thing as Bethel then yes, I would.

[JohnH]

"students will learn how to" is very different from, "students will study the teachings of Jesus and will learn about Christians who have...".

And yes, students pay to learn this.

Bethel people believe that when you read and understand the Bible, you read and understand what it says about miracles and will feel comfortable believing you too can participate in prayer to Jesus and belief in the Holy Spirit to heal people, cast out devils, and so forth.

You will notice the sentence started with "Students will learn how to read, understand, and 'do' the Bible". I have a hard time understanding how this i objectionable.

As I have already stated, these classes are free of charge to people who don't want to attend a full time Bible school. Bethel teaches that every Christian should be comfortable engaging with the "supernatural", not just people who attend their Bible school, which is one of the cheapest full-time program with housing I can find anywhere. Faith Builders, which i an unaccredited school whose credits do not easily transfer to larger institutions (an in-law-in-law of mine just got soundly rejected attempting to transfer credits from FBEP), charges $19k a year in Meadeville, PA which is a cheaper area than Cleveland, Ohio, where Bethel charges $2,700 a year.

Acquaintances who have grown up in charismatic settings talk about methods and tricks some faith healers "learn" from practitioners about how to fake healings and divert attention from healings that do not happen.

I have generally not observed Bethel to be guilty of this, and if anything, they have a shift away from physical healing to preferring the idea of healing from addictions and so forth. For example, they operate a (free of charge) program at Redding in California to help people struggling with ungodly lusts toward the same sex to believe for miraculous healing from that, called CHANGED. Their approach is very charismatic / Pentecostal - believing that a miracle can happen, instead of via counseling, therapist, psychologists and so forth. They also run a rather large ministry that is described "former addicts bringing healing to current addicts".

Many also "learn" how to credit things to the supernatural that are not supernatural. For example, physical therapists and chiropractors can "lengthen legs" through manual adjustments. Can God lengthen legs? Certainly! But not all leg lengthening is supernatural.

For the record, I am not Pentecostal or charismatic. But I think the accusations against Bethel membership, its leadership, and their Bible schools is uncharitable.

Whether or not Bethel does this, I don't know but I would be glad to know more about them on this topic.

I will say one more thing in defense of Bethel. They somehow have managed to be in operation for 27 year and have yet to have any kind of sex-abuse scandal. That's remarkable, and perhaps those of us in glass houses should set down our stones.

[Ken]

I will say one more thing in defense of Bethel. They somehow have managed to be in operation for 27 year and have yet to have any kind of sex-abuse scandal. That's remarkable, and perhaps those of us in glass houses should set down our stones.

Then you are choosing not to pay any attention. It took me all of 15 seconds to find this is not true:

https://protestia.com/2024/01/22/mike-b ... eadership/

Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson Accused of Brushing Aside Sexual Abuse Complaint+ Insists ‘I Was No Longer In The Leadership’

One thing we keep on learning from the whole Mike Bickle/International House of Prayer debacle is that issues of possible sexual abuse or sexual impropriety were often raised with leaders in good faith and then either ignored or passed off for the next person to deal with. One such person is ‘prophet’ Bob Hartley (right), who helped start IHOPK, was known to Bickle (left) and was finally banned from attending IHOPKC’s prayer room after a fresh round of allegations of sexual misconduct came to light just days ago.

Former IHOPKC leader Michelle Seidler alleges that in 2016, she complained about Hartley’s sexual misconduct to Mike Bickle and Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Redding, California, where Hartley was ministering to at the time.

Mike Bickle allegedly did nothing and later denied being told. Bill Johnson sent an email informing folks that Hartley was no longer allowed to minister among them but did not say why or escalate or expose Hartley further.

In 2022, it was more of the same. Another woman contacted Dave Thomas, a staff member at IHOPKC and a board member at Deeper Waters, one of Hartley’s ministries, with more allegations against him. Thomas confirms that allegations of sexual misconduct were made against Hartley and that he resigned as a result but says no one at IHOP wanted to get involved. Thomas insists he told several leaders about the allegations, including Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson, and others, but Johnson allegedly said he couldn’t do anything since Hartley wasn’t on staff at Bethel and also had a lot on his plate with his wife Benni being sick with cancer.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/kris ... ickle.html

Bethel’s Kris Vallotton apologizes to abuse victims after declaring ‘I love Mike Bickle’

Kris Vallotton, senior associate leader of Bethel Church in California, apologized to victims of abuse and sexual misconduct in the Church after offering support in a sermon Sunday to International House of Prayer Kansas City founder Mike Bickle, who faces sexual misconduct allegations from multiple women.

"On February 18, 2024, I shared a message regarding the need for accountability, transparency, and true repentance from leaders, especially in the Church. The intention of my message was to share the critical need and call for greater levels of health, purity, and accountability for leaders," Vallotton, who also co-founded Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry, said in a statement shared on Facebook.

"However, I realize now that I did not express compassion for or address the need for the protection of all victims of abuse and sexual misconduct that I see in and out of the Church. This is and has always been my priority in these situations."

Vallotton states that his "omission" has "hurt many in the Body who are processing hurt concerning the heartbreaking situations unfolding at IHOPKC and elsewhere."

"This is my mistake, and I am deeply sorry," he concluded. "I ask for forgiveness for the people whom I have hurt with this omission."

In the sermon, Vallotton lamented what he called a "culture of justice" in the Church that makes it difficult for religious leaders struggling with sin to "tell someone they're struggling."

"I want to point out that fallen leaders aren't entertainment to watch. They're a tragedy to intercede for. … It's not a movie where you get to know all the details because you have to know all the details. It's important that we know all the details. Why?" he asked.

"We watch a fallen leader like we're watching a movie. We cry out for all the details, tell us all the details and let's put it on the internet so the world can see how our fallen leaders are dealt with. And I'd like to point out that that's a culture of justice, and we need justice, but we need reconciliation," Vallotton argued prior to mentioning Bickle.

"Watching what's happening with IHOP — and by the way, I want to say publicly, I love Mike Bickle — I don't know what the outcome will be, but it won't change the fact that I love him. That's right, he's my brother. It won't change the fact that he's my brother," he insisted.

The pastor said that about two days before his sermon, someone reached out to him on social media about why he hadn't said anything publicly about the situation at IHOPKC.

"They said, 'Oh you haven't said anything about, you know, [the] IHOP situation, so you obviously are part of the problem.'"

"I replied, I wrote, 'You're an idiot.' But then I realized that I was an idiot for calling him an idiot, and I had just answered a fool according to his foolishness and became a fool right with him. So, I immediately took it down," Vallotton said.

"This is not entertainment. This is tragedy. I'm not going to play out on social media to let you all know, 'Well, you know, I believe that Mike Bickle should do this, and this is the way it should happen. I just want everybody know I'm against it, too.'"

"Listen, if you can't look at my life and know where I stand, I guess I don't have much of a life. My goal for Mike Bickle and IHOP and everyone else who's struggling, including the Bethel struggles we have, is that we would reconcile and that we would see righteousness grow out of it, not another documentary."

On Monday, Cindy Jacobs, a popular self-professed prophet and author, said she was "deeply grieved" as allegations of spiritual and sexual misconduct continue to mount against Bickle.

"As a leader in the prayer movement, I am deeply grieved at the sexual misconduct of Mike Bickle," Jacobs wrote in a statement on X Monday night. "There are many pure and wonderful people who love 24/7 prayer, and I am praying that their intercession will not be lessened. I am also praying for IHOP and the victims."

Her comments came less than two weeks after Lou Engle, a co-founder of IHOPKC who currently leads Lou Engle Ministries and founded TheCall prayer movement, expressed grief over the allegations against Bickle. Engle said he is praying that Bickle will come forward with "a full confession of all that is hidden."

For months, IHOPKC and a group of former leaders known as the advocate group have butted heads over an investigation into allegations of abuse against Bickle since they were made public last October.

A Change.org petition launched last November, which has more than 4,400 signatures, calls on IHOPKC "to conduct a true third-party investigation into the sexual abuse allegations and the systemic environment at IHOPKC in order to protect the interests of the alleged victims and current congregants."

[JohnH]

I will say one more thing in defense of Bethel. They somehow have managed to be in operation for 27 year and have yet to have any kind of sex-abuse scandal. That's remarkable, and perhaps those of us in glass houses should set down our stones.

Then you are choosing not to pay any attention. It took me all of 15 seconds to find this is not true:

https://protestia.com/2024/01/22/mike-b ... eadership/

Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson Accused of Brushing Aside Sexual Abuse Complaint+ Insists ‘I Was No Longer In The Leadership’

Mike Bickle is not part of Bethel and is not part of the same denomination. IHOP, or "International House of Prayer" (not pancakes) is not the same institution as Bethel, although they have some similarities in terms of Pentecostal beliefs; by that token, so does Sunni Islam with Bethel since they both believe in the virgin birth.

Perhaps you should have spent more than 15 seconds searching on this?

In 2022, it was more of the same. Another woman contacted Dave Thomas, a staff member at IHOPKC and a board member at Deeper Waters, one of Hartley’s ministries, with more allegations against him. Thomas confirms that allegations of sexual misconduct were made against Hartley and that he resigned as a result but says no one at IHOP wanted to get involved. Thomas insists he told several leaders about the allegations, including Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson, and others, but Johnson allegedly said he couldn’t do anything since Hartley wasn’t on staff at Bethel and also had a lot on his plate with his wife Benni being sick with cancer.

That would seem to be accurate: Bill Johnson isn't in charge of a church in Kansas City, and can't do anything about them.

Bethel’s Kris Vallotton apologizes to abuse victims after declaring ‘I love Mike Bickle’

Is there something wrong with what he said?

Kris Vallotton, senior associate leader of Bethel Church in California, apologized to victims of abuse and sexual misconduct in the Church after offering support in a sermon Sunday to International House of Prayer Kansas City founder Mike Bickle, who faces sexual misconduct allegations from multiple women.

"On February 18, 2024, I shared a message regarding the need for accountability, transparency, and true repentance from leaders, especially in the Church. The intention of my message was to share the critical need and call for greater levels of health, purity, and accountability for leaders," Vallotton, who also co-founded Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry, said in a statement shared on Facebook.

Is there something wrong with that, too? Here he is, apologizing on behalf of another church in a different denomination that had no accountability to him.

Ken, I said there are no sexual abuse allegations, let alone anything confirmed, against Bethel Redding / Bethel Cleveland churches and their leadership. Bill Johnson and Bethel's leadership are not responsible for the entire globe, or for a specific church in Kansas City. Despite them having no responsibility and the leaders there not being accountable in any way to Bethel, one of Bethel's leaders still issued a general apology and said they want to improve accountability and oversight and try to handle these things better in the future.

Short of them succeeding in taking over the U.S. government, I'm not sure how you expect them to do that.