Southern Baptists Affirm Ban on SSM

[temporal1]

Would his statement have been more acceptable to you if he’d said they were 18?

i haven’t read more than headlines about the OP statement. i don’t plan to.

i don’t know a lot about Baptists, but they aren’t CO, they vote, etc., many black churches are Baptist. Like many Christian churches, including some Anabaptists, they can embrace politics. (i think embracing politics in churches was worsened by MLKJr., and a gross mistake.)

However.
Proponents of Planned Parenthood have no qualms about referring to teens AND children as women, when it comes to fornication, birth control, abortion, sodomy. Not marriage. They don’t want young marriage. (i guess they prefer no traditional marriage.)
It can be hard keeping up with human reasoning.

i’ve been complaining about PP’s abuse of language for years.
Children+teens are not women, not even when pregnant. Not physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.

Not to mention those wanting to lower voting age to 16.
They’re not described as children (“i promise you”) when the topic of legal minors+dependents voting rears its ugly head.

i agree that language of legal minors+dependents is best protected.
Laws protecting them were necessary, esp to prevent all manner exploitation, and should not be eroded.

[JohnH]

Would his statement have been more acceptable to you if he’d said they were 18?

i haven’t read more than headlines about the OP statement. i don’t plan to.

i don’t know a lot about Baptists, but they aren’t CO, they vote, etc., many black churches are Baptist. Like many Christian churches, including some Anabaptists, they can embrace politics. (i think embracing politics in churches was worsened by MLKJr., and a gross mistake.)

However.
Proponents of Planned Parenthood have no qualms about referring to teens AND children as women, when it comes to fornication, birth control, abortion, sodomy. Not marriage. They don’t want young marriage. (i guess they prefer no traditional marriage.)
It can be hard keeping up with human reasoning.

i’ve been complaining about PP’s abuse of language for years.
Children+teens are not women, not even when pregnant. Not physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.

Not to mention those wanting to lower voting age to 16.
They’re not described as children (“i promise you”) when the topic of legal minors+dependents voting rears its ugly head.

i agree that language of legal minors+dependents is best protected.
Laws protecting them were necessary, esp to prevent all manner exploitation, and should not be eroded.

I wonder if Szdfan and joshuabgood would be protesting as much about transporting a 16 year old across state lines to get an abortion.

[JohnH]

This stuff is really a problem with Baptist leaders isn't it? Here's another Baptist minister giving a sermon to his congregation of 20,000 at the First Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana, which at that time was the largest megachurch in the state of Indiana and 11th largest in the US. Apparently this was one of his popular "go-to" sermons and not some one-off error in judgement: https://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Maga ... st-Church/ And speaking of perving over 16-year-olds, this guy was later convicted in federal court and sentenced to 12 years for transporting a 16 year old girl across state lines to Michigan to engage in sex (statutory rape). He was also the chancellor of Hyles Anderson College https://hylesanderson.edu/ a small Baptist college. And during his time in prison he was caught by his wife doing conjugal visits with other "girlfriends" who he had met as prison pen pals so that blew up his marriage, which apparently a conviction for statutory rape and child sex trafficking didn't do. So, you know, a good Baptist role model to lecture others about the sanctity of marriage.

It turns out he was actually convicted of child pornography charges and entered a plea agreement, and somehow evaded state level prosecution in Illinois; there’s nothing illegal in Michigan about adults of any age engaging in fornication with 16 year olds, including “transporting across state lines”, so your statement is demonstrably false that he was convicted of “statutory rape”.

What is really amazing is that a denomination takes a stand against one form of immorality, and then you complain about a few instances of another kind of immorality. Every Baptist I have known where we’ve ever discussed it is very much opposed to fornication, pastors preying in teenagers, and other forms of immorality.

[JohnH]

Would his statement have been more acceptable to you if he’d said they were 18?

If Patterson had said she was 18, it still would’ve been gross. Because it wasn’t just about age — it was about a man in spiritual authority using the pulpit to objectify a girl. The fact that she was a minor just makes it worse. But even at 18, it’s still creepy, inappropriate, and a clear abuse of position. Why are you defending this?

Also I almost guarantee you that story actually never even happened. I heard Southern Baptist preachers tell ridiculous stories to make sermon points when I was in VA, including the also disgraced Johnny Hunt. And also that crude way of speaking about women also isn't that uncommon. I used to cringe in the 90s the way some would talk about women.

His story also demeans the mother and simultaneously tried to make him look good and mature.

Can you explain why you said “his lust of a child”? That’s an exaggeration and if you can’t see that, it’s a bit concerning. You are aware that sometimes adults do talk about the fact teenagers like to flirt with other teenagers, right?

[ken_sylvania]

If Patterson had said she was 18, it still would’ve been gross. Because it wasn’t just about age — it was about a man in spiritual authority using the pulpit to objectify a girl. The fact that she was a minor just makes it worse. But even at 18, it’s still creepy, inappropriate, and a clear abuse of position. Why are you defending this?

Also I almost guarantee you that story actually never even happened. I heard Southern Baptist preachers tell ridiculous stories to make sermon points when I was in VA, including the also disgraced Johnny Hunt. And also that crude way of speaking about women also isn't that uncommon. I used to cringe in the 90s the way some would talk about women.

His story also demeans the mother and simultaneously tried to make him look good and mature.

Can you explain why you said “his lust of a child”? That’s an exaggeration and if you can’t see that, it’s a bit concerning. You are aware that sometimes adults do talk about the fact teenagers like to flirt with other teenagers, right?

But according to the story there was no flirting going on. It was one boy commenting to another boy about the girl's looks in an objectifying way, with the preacher speaking approvingly of it and claiming it was biblical.
If you're gonna complain about joshuagood's slant on the story, then by all means make sure you aren't slanting it yourself. That boy wasn't flirting.

[JohnH]

Also I almost guarantee you that story actually never even happened. I heard Southern Baptist preachers tell ridiculous stories to make sermon points when I was in VA, including the also disgraced Johnny Hunt. And also that crude way of speaking about women also isn't that uncommon. I used to cringe in the 90s the way some would talk about women.

His story also demeans the mother and simultaneously tried to make him look good and mature.

Can you explain why you said “his lust of a child”? That’s an exaggeration and if you can’t see that, it’s a bit concerning. You are aware that sometimes adults do talk about the fact teenagers like to flirt with other teenagers, right?

But according to the story there was no flirting going on. It was one boy commenting to another boy about the girl's looks in an objectifying way, with the preacher speaking approvingly of it and claiming it was biblical.
If you're gonna complain about joshuagood's slant on the story, then by all means make sure you aren't slanting it yourself. That boy wasn't flirting.

Flirting or talking about a girl. These are things that go on very often. I suspect if we took an honest poll here, virtually everyone, male or female, will at some point in their life made a remark about an attractive person of the opposite sex - or at least thought about it.

I think people should be careful to guard their hearts and eyes, but I also don’t consider it some grievous scandal for a teenage boy to remark to another teenage boy that he finds a teenage girl attractive. I would not personally use such an anecdote in a sermon if I were to give one, but I’m having a very hard time getting from what I just described to accusing the preacher of having “lust to a child”.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

I'm skeptical that Republicans really want to take on that battle again in a bunch of red states. But maybe I'm wrong.

Nothing gets voters energized more than a battle. I'm convinced that abortion was used primarily as a wedge issue to inspire voters to a fighting mentality and inspire more voter turnout... on BOTH sides of the aisle. I grew up hearing about it as an existential crisis among conservatives. Now I am hearing about it as an existential crisis from progressives. It's just fear-based political conflict.

[Szdfan]

Can you explain why you said “his lust of a child”? That’s an exaggeration and if you can’t see that, it’s a bit concerning. You are aware that sometimes adults do talk about the fact teenagers like to flirt with other teenagers, right?

But according to the story there was no flirting going on. It was one boy commenting to another boy about the girl's looks in an objectifying way, with the preacher speaking approvingly of it and claiming it was biblical.
If you're gonna complain about joshuagood's slant on the story, then by all means make sure you aren't slanting it yourself. That boy wasn't flirting.

Flirting or talking about a girl. These are things that go on very often. I suspect if we took an honest poll here, virtually everyone, male or female, will at some point in their life made a remark about an attractive person of the opposite sex - or at least thought about it.

I think people should be careful to guard their hearts and eyes, but I also don’t consider it some grievous scandal for a teenage boy to remark to another teenage boy that he finds a teenage girl attractive. I would not personally use such an anecdote in a sermon if I were to give one, but I’m having a very hard time getting from what I just described to accusing the preacher of having “lust to a child”.

The issue isn’t a teenage boy making a comment. It’s a grown man retelling that moment in a sermon, affirming it, and sexualizing a teenage girl in the process. That’s not just poor judgment. That’s using spiritual authority to normalize objectification.

If you’re more outraged by the phrase “lust of a child” than by a pastor using the pulpit to approve of teenage objectification, you’re telling on yourself. And the SBC eventually agreed and that’s why Patterson was removed.

What a strange and creepy hill to die on.

[JohnH]

The issue isn’t a teenage boy making a comment. It’s a grown man retelling that moment in a sermon, affirming it, and sexualizing a teenage girl in the process. That’s not just poor judgment. That’s using spiritual authority to normalize objectification.

Is it wrong for teenage boys to be attracted to teenage girls? Try to stop saying “sexualizing a teenage girl” here; we’re all adults (presumably) and we all understand it’s not only normal but healthy for teenage boys to be attracted to teenage girls (or do you disagree with that?) and that, yes, sometimes teenage boys talk to other teenage boys about things, including girls they think are attractive.

Or do you think it’s wrong / immoral for that to happen?

If you’re more outraged by the phrase “lust of a child” than by a pastor using the pulpit to approve of teenage objectification, you’re telling on yourself. And the SBC eventually agreed and that’s why Patterson was removed.

I think exaggerating that moment into claiming the pastor had “lust of a child” (did he? I didn’t see any evidence of that) is problematic, particularly since when people here this kind of exaggeration, they stop taking claims something bad is happening seriously.

What a strange and creepy hill to die on.

I think it’s entirely normal for teenage boys and teenage girls to be attracted to each other.

I think it’s entirely abnormal for men to try to marry other men and engage in unspeakable immoral sins with other men.

[temporal1]

Nothing gets voters energized more than a battle. I'm convinced that abortion was used primarily as a wedge issue to inspire voters to a fighting mentality and inspire more voter turnout... on BOTH sides of the aisle. I grew up hearing about it as an existential crisis among conservatives. Now I am hearing about it as an existential crisis from progressives. It's just fear-based political conflict.

i understand the value of moral equivalency, Jesus handled it perfectly.
Humans aren’t perfect, don’t understand with perfection. Truth gets botched.

Putting gov promoted+protected corporate profits up against egregious sacrifice of human life is a moral failure of itself.
The sheer numbers of abortions are staggering.

Regardless of politics. (It shouldn’t be a political matter anymore than any murder or theft.)
Altho, even those sins have now been put up for political grabs. More+more, public cheering+funding of sinners is happening.
Cold blooded murderers are being made millionaires. viewtopic.php?t=7802