Anabaptist ordination - lifelong calling?

[mike]

I do not across the board object to how the lot is used in the Amish and Mennonite settings that I know.
But I am puzzled by what seems to me to be a contradiction.

They have this belief God directs the lot of God choosing the next minister, but only after human mechanisms have selected a small group for God to pick from. IF God is so interested in the next minister at some congregation, why not just put every man over 21 (or whatever the broadest qualifications are) in the lot and let God handle it.

I mean, I have heard a lot of reasons why they cannot do that, but honesty they are not convincing.
Either God is controlling the Lot or he is not.

Hey, I am not criticizing. The Holy Spirit picks the Pope….only after He gets enough votes after several rounds of voting! LOL

Your points are valid if the claim is that God alone chooses our ministers.

We should not make such a claim. It is not possible to say that our ordination process leaves everything up to God. It does not. The lot is only used after several rounds of 'human mechanisms' - nominations (voting), the meeting of certain preset criteria from written policy such as number of nominations required, and vetting by the existing ordained men. This process sometimes results in multiple candidates who are for all intents and purposes are equally qualified, and from whom one or more is chosen by lot (which by definition is selection by random chance). God can work through this process; we know that people were chosen by this method in scripture. But we cannot say that our leaders are solely chosen by God. They are not.

It is also quite possible for individuals completely unqualified for church leadership to be selected through this process. If that were not the case, churches would not take the care they do to vet candidates. We could just throw the whole membership body up for random selection, including the ladies, and see if God picks a novice or a woman pastor, but that's just stupid. Paul wrote of the qualifications for church leadership for a reason. We are supposed to use our own good judgment informed by biblical leadership qualifications in choosing leaders. If that's being done by those nominating and by those vetting candidates, in conjunction with the use of a lot system, it can work fine. So can other methods.

I think sermons surrounding an ordination should make just as much of the church's responsibility to judge wisely as they do of the results of the lot being God's prerogative. However you can look at the work of the church in choosing as being just another way God makes his choice known.

It's a little like a friend of mine who was showing off his amazing garden to my father in law. My father in law complemented him on it, and my friend made some remark like "it's just me and the Lord." But he couldn't resist adding, "You should have seen it when the Lord had it all to himself!"

God does his work through us. But at the same time it is really hard to know whether the work we do is always, for certain, God's will. We just don't know everything. I'm fine with saying that our ordinations are made based on the church's best judgment and consensus, and if there's a lot, by random selection, and that God can work through the process, but that mistakes can still be made. I guess if God wanted everything done perfectly, he sure wouldn't have given the job to humans.

[mike]

I have had the same objections to the lot. If the lot can be trusted.. why do the presiding bishops tend to "doctor" the lot selection process, such as setting arbitrary thresholds for who gets it (and not even telling anyone)?

Transparency is the key. In our conference, a minister (bishop actually, I think) from outside our conference is present as an observer in the process. If a member brings a nomination and that person is unqualified for some reason that was not known to that person, he is informed on the spot and has the opportunity to change his nomination. The threshold for being in the lot is always either 3 or 5 nominations based on the size of the congregation, and this is always announced ahead of time. If a person is disqualified during the vetting process, it is publicly announced with at least a generalized reason why (I've seen this happen).

I'm not a huge fan of the lot for selecting leaders, but I have a hard time criticizing the way it's done in our conference from what I know of it.

[JohnH]

Your points are valid if the claim is that God alone chooses our ministers.

Anabaptists seem to suffer a bit from that belief. In my own group, we don't believe God directly chooses them - but we effectively do believe that if we have a round of revival meetings, everyone gets up and shares their Christian testimony of the last year, we have a clean communion, and so forth, that we are so united as brethren and also "of one accord" and aligned with the Holy Spirit that we have the authority (dare I say "apostolic authority") to choose to ordain a leader. I.e., we are in a spiritual state where if we open ourselves to God's well and write down the name or names that come to mind, then God's will will be done to choose (or not choose) who is ordained.

I have more confidence in this model, though, than the idea someone is God-ordained to choose who the next priest or bishop is just because he was ordained himself.

[mike]

Your points are valid if the claim is that God alone chooses our ministers.

Anabaptists seem to suffer a bit from that belief. In my own group, we don't believe God directly chooses them - but we effectively do believe that if we have a round of revival meetings, everyone gets up and shares their Christian testimony of the last year, we have a clean communion, and so forth, that we are so united as brethren and also "of one accord" and aligned with the Holy Spirit that we have the authority (dare I say "apostolic authority") to choose to ordain a leader. I.e., we are in a spiritual state where if we open ourselves to God's well and write down the name or names that come to mind, then God's will will be done to choose (or not choose) who is ordained.

I have more confidence in this model, though, than the idea someone is God-ordained to choose who the next priest or bishop is just because he was ordained himself.

Yeah, we do suffer from it.

[R7ehr]

1. We don't like the system of just voting in the most popular person as preacher. Shouldn't be a popularity contest. Enough said about that.
2. We don't like the idea of just throwing everyone in the lot. Obviously some people aren't qualified.
3. We don't like the idea of ordaining every person who meets the qualifications. Like it or not, there is such a thing as too many. But Ernie can disagree.
4. We do believe that the Holy Spirit works through people. We are not dependent on the lot for confirmation.
5. If there are multiple qualified candidates, and only one is needed, "the lot causeth contentions to cease".

If you aren't going to go with the most popular, if that is your decision, how are you going to select between multiple qualified candidates? In the secular workplace, the supervisor simply looks at the candidates and hires the one he thinks is best. Is that a better method for selecting church leaders? Just nominate a few, and then let the leaders hand pick one? Would that "cause contentions to cease", or would we constantly be hearing moaning about underhanded dealings, and hearing about how we should follow the practice of the NT lot?

[Ernie]

Like it or not, there is such a thing as too many.

There is the possibility of too many in a local congregation, but yes I disagree that there are too many in the US or in the church at large. Ordain them and send them out. Not all want to be sent but some would.

I do not across the board object to how the lot is used in the Amish and Mennonite settings that I know.
But I am puzzled by what seems to me to be a contradiction.

They have this belief God directs the lot of God choosing the next minister, but only after human mechanisms have selected a small group for God to pick from. IF God is so interested in the next minister at some congregation, why not just put every man over 21 (or whatever the broadest qualifications are) in the lot and let God handle it.


I mean, I have heard a lot of reasons why they cannot do that, but honesty they are not convincing.
Either God is controlling the Lot or he is not.

This is not Urim and Thummim.

The Apostles tried replacing Judas. They came up with two names (men who met certain qualifications) instead of one. Since they wanted to keep the number at 12 instead of 13, they asked God which one he wanted to have replace Judas. I could think of other ways to solve this difficulty, but hey, the lot causes contentions to cease then and it still does today if handled in a honorable and transparent manner.

The bigger question in my mind is why not have 13. I ask this same question today. If you have four equally qualified brothers for elder, ordain them all. More church appointed elders are needed all around the world to do church planting, teaching and equipping. Macedonian Teaching Ministries and many others need many more elders to train and shepherd pastors in Asia if they are not needed in the US. I know of several churches in the US right now that would love to have a seasoned elder to spend time at their church. But they are not available because there is a shortage. Meanwhile, thousands of qualified men listened to ordained men preach every Sunday because their church wants "12 instead of 13".

[R7ehr]

Like it or not, there is such a thing as too many.

There is the possibility of too many in a local congregation, but yes I disagree that there are too many in the US or in the church at large. Ordain them and send them out. Not all want to be sent but some would.

Okay. I would listen to that idea. I'm talking about the local congregation.

[barnhart]

There is the possibility of too many in a local congregation, but yes I disagree that there are too many in the US or in the church at large. Ordain them and send them out. Not all want to be sent but some would.

I like this.

[JohnH]

"Too many ordained men" is just not a problem anyone is suffering from. If we actually did have such a blessing, perhaps the "excess" ordained men could find various ministries and opportunities to serve with their calling.

[ohio jones]

The Apostles tried replacing Judas. They came up with two names (men who met certain qualifications) instead of one. Since they wanted to keep the number at 12 instead of 13, they asked God which one he wanted to have replace Judas. I could think of other ways to solve this difficulty, but hey, the lot causes contentions to cease then and it still does today if handled in a honorable and transparent manner.

The bigger question in my mind is why not have 13.

Because of Rev. 21. However, this is not applicable to our churches today.