Bethel Church

[Ken]

Sorry, but I don't see something wrong with people who believe that miracles are possible and pray for things like healing. I suspect you have other reasons you are critical of Bethel; discussion of that would belong in a different subforum.

What I said that seemed to set you off was that people like Paula White and the bunch from Bethel tend to run nondenominational unaffiliated churches because they can get away with more nonsense when they aren't under the supervision and authority of some larger denomination.

It isn't a coincidence that Bethel withdrew from the Assemblies of God denomination after Bill Johnson joined them and took over leadership. That is when the craziness and grifting like their multi million dollar miracles academy really took off on a whole new level.

I’ve elsewhere made clear my opinion on Paula White.

I was specifically addressing your slander of Bethel Redding/Bethel Cleveland.

Slander is saying untrue or false things about someone or some organization. The only one engaged in that here is you.

I provided three TRUE things about Bethel Church: (1) That they claim to be able to resurrect the dead through prayer. (2) That they operate a School of Supernatural Ministry which people have nicknamed "Christian Hogwarts" which earns them millions of dollars where they claim to teach people how to do faith healing and conduct other miracles, and (3) they engage in the practice of "grave sucking" where they lay down on the graves of dead men and claim to be able to extract their spirits or the essence of their "anointments" or some such. All three practices that they freely admit to and that have been in the press. And all of which happened and continue to happen under Bill Johnson's leadership.

I didn't even get into the fact that they are a textbook example of a "prosperity gospel" church. Which is also anti-Biblical: https://onwardinthefaith.com/bethels-fa ... -debate-3/

Which of these four claims is slander? I'm frankly shocked that a professed Anabaptist would want to have anything to do with them let alone defend their practices as Biblical.

[JohnH]

I have no problem with people agreeing in prayer to pray for miracles.

I don’t agree with seeking relics from deceased saints but most Christendom is fine with this.

[Jazman]

I have no problem with people agreeing in prayer to pray for miracles.

I don’t agree with seeking relics from deceased saints but most Christendom is fine with this.

I too am struggling to understand why you would defend Bill Johnson or anybody in that orbit... (But this is a bit off-topic... Someone's welcome to spin this off somewhere else... it's something that kind of hits a button of mine and I don't want to fill this thread up with stuff... but man could I go on a many postings, many links rant...)

[Ken]

I have no problem with people agreeing in prayer to pray for miracles.

I don’t agree with seeking relics from deceased saints but most Christendom is fine with this.

I too am struggling to understand why you would defend Bill Johnson or anybody in that orbit... (But this is a bit off-topic... Someone's welcome to spin this off somewhere else... it's something that kind of hits a button of mine and I don't want to fill this thread up with stuff... but man could I go on a many postings, many links rant...)

There are lots of people and organizations that give Christianity a bad name by pursing un-Biblical actions and beliefs. Mostly they aren't Anabaptist (although Anabaptists aren't exempt). But Bill Johnson and Bethel certainly fall into that category in my book as do the rest of the bunch that Ernie listed upstream as part of the Seven Mountains movement. I'm not sure why it is controversial to say so.

[justme]

I too am struggling to understand why you would defend Bill Johnson or anybody in that orbit...

i don't struggle with understanding why
just realize that JohnH must be on the opposite side as Ken, no matter the topic.

[JohnH]

I have no problem with people agreeing in prayer to pray for miracles.

I don’t agree with seeking relics from deceased saints but most Christendom is fine with this.

I too am struggling to understand why you would defend Bill Johnson or anybody in that orbit... (But this is a bit off-topic... Someone's welcome to spin this off somewhere else... it's something that kind of hits a button of mine and I don't want to fill this thread up with stuff... but man could I go on a many postings, many links rant...)

I’ve simply seen a great deal of good fruit come out of Bethel and have encountered faithful believers there. They have a heavy focus on evangelism, good works to the needy, and have a very positive impact on their local community. They put we Anabaptists to shame in some of these areas.

[Ernie]

I’ve simply seen a great deal of good fruit come out of Bethel and have encountered faithful believers there. They have a heavy focus on evangelism, good works to the needy, and have a very positive impact on their local community. They put we Anabaptists to shame in some of these areas.

A lot of good fruit comes out of the LDS church also, but you recently said there isn't anything we should be learning from them.

Yet Bethel promotes heresies and stories that are similar to the sorts of things you hear from the Mormons.

The Mormons claim Joseph Smith and his friends saw gold plates. Johnson and his friends claim to have seen a glory cloud of real gold dust swooshing across the room.

Mormons believe that Jesus was created as a spirit child. Bill Johnson believes that Jesus laid aside his divinity during his earthly ministry.

Both believe in Extra-Biblical Revelation and Authority

Mormons have temple rituals, such as endowments and baptisms for the dead. Smith used peep stones to find buried treasures. The temple ceremonies and symbols resemble masonic things. Mormons wear clothing next to their skin that supposedly has spiritual powers.
Folks at Bethel have practiced “grave soaking” (lying on graves to absorb a deceased Christian’s anointing) and Bill did not denounce because he did not want to discourage student's spiritual experimentation. (even though he said it is not officially promoted by the church.) They have prophetic exercises that resemble New Age or psychic techniques (e.g., “prophetic cards” or “destiny pants”). Destiny pants are yoga like pants designed by Dedmon, intended to embody "prophetic art" that allegedly enhances the wearer's awareness of God's presence and facilitates "heavenly encounters."

[Ernie]

How many Neo-Evangelical Anabaptists believe this stuff that is coming from Bill Johnson/Bethel, that I mentioned?

[ohio jones]

I too am struggling to understand why you would defend Bill Johnson or anybody in that orbit...

i don't struggle with understanding why
just realize that JohnH must be on the opposite side as Ken, no matter the topic.

Still, seeing him defend Bethel was not on my bingo card.

[JohnH]

I’ve simply seen a great deal of good fruit come out of Bethel and have encountered faithful believers there. They have a heavy focus on evangelism, good works to the needy, and have a very positive impact on their local community. They put we Anabaptists to shame in some of these areas.

A lot of good fruit comes out of the LDS church also, but you recently said there isn't anything we should be learning from them.

I believe that LDS teaching teaches that Jesus is not the Christ, and that there is a way to heaven other than Jesus. I think we should avoid that level of false teaching altogether.

Yet Bethel promotes heresies and stories that are similar to the sorts of things you hear from the Mormons.

Nothing Bethel teaches is more outlandish than other evangelical and Pentecostal groups.

The Mormons claim Joseph Smith and his friends saw gold plates. Johnson and his friends claim to have seen a glory cloud of real gold dust swooshing across the room.

Johnson does not claim to have found gold plates that are extra books of the Bible.

Mormons believe that Jesus was created as a spirit child. Bill Johnson believes that Jesus laid aside his divinity during his earthly ministry.

Eastern Orthodoxy teaches kenosis (the doctrine you described). Roman Catholicism teaches against kenosis. I do not consider either Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy to be particularly more right than the other. Nor do I think these kind of christological details are really that important. Did Jesus seem to lay aside being God when he was on earth? Sometimes it seems he did, such as when he said he was hungry. Was Jesus fully God? Yes, I believe he was and is.

Both believe in Extra-Biblical Revelation and Authority

Mormons have temple rituals, such as endowments and baptisms for the dead. Smith used peep stones to find buried treasures. The temple ceremonies and symbols resemble masonic things. Mormons wear clothing next to their skin that supposedly has spiritual powers.

Folks at Bethel have practiced “grave soaking” (lying on graves to absorb a deceased Christian’s anointing) and Bill did not denounce because he did not want to discourage student's spiritual experimentation. (even though he said it is not officially promoted by the church.)

I don't see how this is different from Roman Catholics who collect relics or bones from old saints. Not something I personally endorse or think Christians should do, but far, far and away from Mormon practices.

They have prophetic exercises that resemble New Age or psychic techniques (e.g., “prophetic cards” or “destiny pants”). Destiny pants are yoga like pants designed by Dedmon, intended to embody "prophetic art" that allegedly enhances the wearer's awareness of God's presence and facilitates "heavenly encounters."

Bethel has long embraced the arts as a form of "worship" and "ministry"... much as the Catholics do. I personally have a very dim view of such art, but it is something the rest of christendom has embraced.

I also view with a great deal of skepticism the anti-Bethel criticism that comes from Reformed/Calvinist groups. They also levy similar criticisms at Anabaptists. I do not consider them a reliable source or guide.