Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists

[Neto]

Re: the term 'conservative':
True, it can be very confusing, especially perhaps for people coming to 'plain' circles with life experience in groups where it is essentially applied as a category of strong emphasis on theology more than fine points of conduct like defined modes of dress (that is, modesty is taught, but w/o 'uniformity').

I don't know if I can say anything that is really helpful for this discussion, except a suggestion to perhaps specify which type of 'conservative' is meant. Some groups are both theologically conservative and also emphasize uniformity in dress and in other areas of conduct. Others are 'conservative' in different ways, such as avoiding all consumption of alcohol, involvement in anything that smacks of gambling, etc.

I am trying to avoid making this very long, but political involvement of any form, whether it is endorsement of the use of force, or participation in efforts to 'force' the State to live by peace and non-aggression; neither is 'conservative' at all in anabaptism. Entrance into the Political Arena for whatever cause is a decidedly 'liberal' bent.

[Ernie]

I cannot think of any groups that fit the definition of Theological Conservative. BMA is the closest, but still practices the headcovering so not sure if you consider them practicing Plain dress. CMC/Rosedale would have fit the definition when Stephen Scott wrote his book. There's much less space between LMC and Rosedale than there was. Rosedale does not allow male pastors, but some Rosedale churches allow women to preach "under the authority of elders." MCUSA has become more progressive since Scott's book. I think Scott's categories need updating.

Conservative evangelical Anabaptists - Rosedale, parts of LMC and Brethren in Christ. Do not ordain women, Lean more towards fundamentalism, inerrancy.
Neo-evangelical Anabaptists - The majority of LMC and Brethren in Christ, a few exiting MC USA congregations. Ordain women. Less fundamentalist, open to neo-evangelical biblical interpretation. Pastors go to seminary at places like Gordon Conwell or Fuller Seminary

Even if Rosedale, for example, heads toward Neo-evangelical, there will always be other churches coming along on the escalator to take its place in the Theologically Conservative/Conservative evangelical camp.
This was General Conference Mennonites in the 1800's and the Funkites in the 1700's.

I'm wrestling a bit with whether categories like "Mainline" should be updated/redefined or whether new categories should be added for groups that accept things they would not have accepted at one point.

Mainline used to mean a certain thing in the late 1900's. It seems to me that this should/could stick with the same definition and we simply add new terms for all the movements that have started since. (i.e. the three mainline groups that you identified who accept LGBTQ)

On the other hand, if sociologists are going to keep using "Mainline" to refer to certain Protestant denominations who keep changing, then it makes sense from a sociological perspective to use their terms and create new categories for the groups who are trying to preserve what mainliners stood for in the last half of the 20th century.  

[Ernie]

Conservative mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks. Holding onto more theological orthodoxy
Moderate mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Affirm and celebrate same-sex marriage. Use the language of Christianity. Not sure what they believe about the Bible. Embrace and celebrate doubt, curiosity over certainty
Progressive mainline - Some percentage of MC USA and COB. Same-sex marriage is a justice issue, and the traditional position is oppressive. May or may not believe in the divinity of Jesus

Would any of these folks be pro-life/anti-abortion?

[Ken]

Conservative mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks. Holding onto more theological orthodoxy
Moderate mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Affirm and celebrate same-sex marriage. Use the language of Christianity. Not sure what they believe about the Bible. Embrace and celebrate doubt, curiosity over certainty
Progressive mainline - Some percentage of MC USA and COB. Same-sex marriage is a justice issue, and the traditional position is oppressive. May or may not believe in the divinity of Jesus

Would any of these folks be pro-life/anti-abortion?

All of them. Although I don't think abortion is an issue that fits neatly into your categories. One can be against abortion and also feel that it isn't the role of the state to regulate/prohibit it. Just like one can be opposed to smoking and alcohol and also feel that it isn't the role of the state to prohibit it. The majority of Americans have nuanced potions on abortion that don't fit neatly into one extreme or the other.

This is the actual MCUSA position on abortion: https://www.mennoniteusa.org/resource-p ... tion-2005/

[JohnH]

Generally speaking, all groups of Mennonites were opposed to abortion; it is only quite recently that some progressive Anabaptists openly support abortion. I can't find it right now, but there was a "sermon" by some woman in an MC USA affiliated congregation in the Pacific Northwest openly advocating that getting abortions is a good thing.

[Ernie]

Conservative mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks. Holding onto more theological orthodoxy
Moderate mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Affirm and celebrate same-sex marriage. Use the language of Christianity. Not sure what they believe about the Bible. Embrace and celebrate doubt, curiosity over certainty
Progressive mainline - Some percentage of MC USA and COB. Same-sex marriage is a justice issue, and the traditional position is oppressive. May or may not believe in the divinity of Jesus

Would any of these folks be pro-life/anti-abortion?

All of them. Although I don't think abortion is an issue that fits neatly into your categories. One can be against abortion and also feel that it isn't the role of the state to regulate/prohibit it. Just like one can be opposed to smoking and alcohol and also feel that it isn't the role of the state to prohibit it. The majority of Americans have nuanced potions on abortion that don't fit neatly into one extreme or the other.

This is the actual MCUSA position on abortion: https://www.mennoniteusa.org/resource-p ... tion-2005/

That reads like pro-choice to me with non-abortion being the generally favored choice.

[ohio jones]

Generally speaking, all groups of Mennonites were opposed to abortion; it is only quite recently that some progressive Anabaptists openly support abortion. I can't find it right now, but there was a "sermon" by some woman in an MC USA affiliated congregation in the Pacific Northwest openly advocating that getting abortions is a good thing.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7113

[Ken]

Would any of these folks be pro-life/anti-abortion?

All of them. Although I don't think abortion is an issue that fits neatly into your categories. One can be against abortion and also feel that it isn't the role of the state to regulate/prohibit it. Just like one can be opposed to smoking and alcohol and also feel that it isn't the role of the state to prohibit it. The majority of Americans have nuanced potions on abortion that don't fit neatly into one extreme or the other.

This is the actual MCUSA position on abortion: https://www.mennoniteusa.org/resource-p ... tion-2005/

That reads like pro-choice to me with non-abortion being the generally favored choice.

The very first bullet is as follows:

• Human life is a gift from God to be valued and protected. We oppose abortion because it runs counter to biblical principles.

Most of the rest of it is talking about how Christians should be doing a better job of supporting life by providing alternatives to abortion.

[JohnH]

The very first bullet is as follows:

• Human life is a gift from God to be valued and protected. We oppose abortion because it runs counter to biblical principles.

Most of the rest of it is talking about how Christians should be doing a better job of supporting life by providing alternatives to abortion.

I note that MC USA and its affiliates generally don't have any reticence about issuing statements about what kind of laws governments should pass, protesting governments, and so on - except mysteriously on the topic of abortion. For example, they'll take a very strong stance against the death penalty, but do not show the same enthusiasm about passing laws banning abortion.

[Pelerin]

I'm wrestling a bit with whether categories like "Mainline" should be updated/redefined or whether new categories should be added for groups that accept things they would not have accepted at one point.

Mainline used to mean a certain thing in the late 1900's. It seems to me that this should/could stick with the same definition and we simply add new terms for all the movements that have started since. (i.e. the three mainline groups that you identified who accept LGBTQ)

On the other hand, if sociologists are going to keep using "Mainline" to refer to certain Protestant denominations who keep changing, then it makes sense from a sociological perspective to use their terms and create new categories for the groups who are trying to preserve what mainliners stood for in the last half of the 20th century.  

I always pictured “mainline” to mean the sort of church the respectable people of town would attend—the doctors and businessmen and such. The sort that won’t ruffle the feathers of respectable society, whatever that means for its constituents. I think that’s still broadly true. “Conservative” mainliners in small towns fit in well with respectable opinion in their town. Even the more outlandish stories you hear about in mainline churches aren’t all that outlandish when you consider that they fit in well with, say, corporate sponsorship of the pride parade that goes past their doors.