Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists

[Ernie]

MCUSA has become more progressive since Scott's book. I think Scott's categories need updating.

Here are some proposed categories. You all can help me flesh this out and even suggest different terms if you like.

Theologically Conservative Anabaptists (non-Plain) - Do not ordain women and do not invite ordained women from other Anabaptist churches to preach or lead in a mixed worship assembly. (In general, women's roles are more defined - more of a complementarian model.) Emphasize things like evangelism, inerrancy (and more literal interpretation of scripture), substitutionary atonement, personal salvation, etc. Do not permit certain types of divorce and remarriage (although not as strict as Plain Anabaptists).

Moderate Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists - Ordain women pastors and bishops. Do not permit practicing LGBTQ as members.

Liberal Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists - Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks.

Progressive Anabaptists - Celebrate LGBTQ

One thing I notice is that Mainstream/Progressive groups tend to engage in wider Peace and Justice activism: Gaza protests, Anti-apartheid protests, Nuclear freeze, Black Lives Matter, etc. Whereas more conservative groups, if they engage in wider political protest at all, it tends to be anti-abortion related.

Are you saying the last two categories in my list or only the last one?

[Ken]

Here are some proposed categories. You all can help me flesh this out and even suggest different terms if you like.

Theologically Conservative Anabaptists (non-Plain) - Do not ordain women and do not invite ordained women from other Anabaptist churches to preach or lead in a mixed worship assembly. (In general, women's roles are more defined - more of a complementarian model.) Emphasize things like evangelism, inerrancy (and more literal interpretation of scripture), substitutionary atonement, personal salvation, etc. Do not permit certain types of divorce and remarriage (although not as strict as Plain Anabaptists).

Moderate Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists - Ordain women pastors and bishops. Do not permit practicing LGBTQ as members.

Liberal Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists - Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks.

Progressive Anabaptists - Celebrate LGBTQ

One thing I notice is that Mainstream/Progressive groups tend to engage in wider Peace and Justice activism: Gaza protests, Anti-apartheid protests, Nuclear freeze, Black Lives Matter, etc. Whereas more conservative groups, if they engage in wider political protest at all, it tends to be anti-abortion related.

Are you saying the last two categories in my list or only the last one?

Well, for example, you will see MCUSA churches regularly participating in anti-war and pro-justice type political protests out here on the west coast. Not just random individuals, but as an identifiable group. For example, this is a Gaza protest in Washington DC:




And I have relatives in CMC churches that I know are actively engaged in the wider political pro-life movement, going to marches and rallies and so forth. At least judging from their Facebook feeds. Beyond that I really can't generalize. I have no idea the extent to which LMC churches engage in either of those things, for example.

[JohnH]

Here are some proposed categories. You all can help me flesh this out and even suggest different terms if you like.

Theologically Conservative Anabaptists (non-Plain) - Do not ordain women and do not invite ordained women from other Anabaptist churches to preach or lead in a mixed worship assembly. (In general, women's roles are more defined - more of a complementarian model.) Emphasize things like evangelism, inerrancy (and more literal interpretation of scripture), substitutionary atonement, personal salvation, etc. Do not permit certain types of divorce and remarriage (although not as strict as Plain Anabaptists).

Moderate Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists - Ordain women pastors and bishops. Do not permit practicing LGBTQ as members.

Liberal Mainline/Mainstream Anabaptists - Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks.

Progressive Anabaptists - Celebrate LGBTQ

These seem like good categories, although I don't know the finer details of the difference between moderate and libreal mainline/mainstream. (I was using the term "mainstream" to refer to "moderate mainline/mainstream", and "mainline" to refer to "liberal mainline/mainstream", but I think your names are better.) However, I would call them this, because of the close similarities to other mainline Protestant denominations:

Moderate Mainline Anabaptist - analogous to Anglican Church of North America, Diocese of the Great Lakes
Liberal Mainline Anabaptist - analogous to the United Church of Christ's Biblical Witness Fellowship
Progressive Mainline Anabaptist - analogous to The Episcopal Church (U.S.), Diocese of New York

One thing I notice is that Mainstream/Progressive groups tend to engage in wider Peace and Justice activism: Gaza protests, Anti-apartheid protests, Nuclear freeze, Black Lives Matter, etc. Whereas more conservative groups, if they engage in wider political protest at all, it tends to be anti-abortion related.

Yes, I would agree with that observation (and I think this goes back quite a few decades, back to even the Vietnam era when the Central District / General Conference sort of crowd engaged in some anti-Vietnam War protests; if I recall correctly, Lancaster Conference eschewed such protests.)

Participation in one or the other is probably on a continuum from TCA - MMA - LMA - PMA.

And I have relatives in CMC churches that I know are actively engaged in the wider political pro-life movement, going to marches and rallies and so forth. At least judging from their Facebook feeds. Beyond that I really can't generalize. I have no idea the extent to which LMC churches engage in either of those things, for example.

Theological-conservative Anabaptists tend to be becoming generic North American evangelical Christians, and so tend to adopt the same ideas they have. If they aren't adopting this identity, then they still have more in common with fundamental-conservative (what Ernie calls progressive-conservative) Anabaptists.

One consequence of this is that an LMC church might be a little more connected to some Anabaptist ideals, including less participation in war, than a theological-conservative Anabaptist group that has adopted an evangelical identity. If I could make a stereotype, I would say that TCA is the "least" Anabaptist of any of the alignments.

[JayP]

I stand my ground. My GSD was non resistant (well trained) and definitely was into separate (she did not warm to anyone outside the family). Definitely a better Anabaptist than most in LMC

Lighten up, but it is true. The question is less where is LMC than will it not continue to roll simply 20-25 years behind mainstream Protestant churches. Hope I am wrong.

[JohnH]

I stand my ground. My GSD was non resistant (well trained) and definitely was into separate (she did not warm to anyone outside the family). Definitely a better Anabaptist than most in LMC

Lighten up, but it is true. The question is less where is LMC than will it not continue to roll simply 20-25 years behind mainstream Protestant churches. Hope I am wrong.

I suspect most LMC members are more Anabaptist than Catholics, though.

[cooper]

Categorizing the denominations in the OP as mainline and mainstream does not make a lot of sense to me. Mainstream seems to be used interchangeably with mainline. Mainline has a clear definition, I don’t think mainstream does. When I use mainstream Anabaptists, I am thinking of any assimilated Anabaptist group from Rosedale to MC USA.

There seems to be a consensus on this forum that women’s ordination is a marker of mainline identity. I disagree. All mainline churches ordain women, but not all churches that ordain women are mainline. The Assemblies of God ordains women, and they are not mainline. Denominations do not ordain women for the same reasons. Many mainline churches see women’s ordination as a justice issue. Denominations like the Assemblies of God and LMC have a higher view of Biblical authority and make their case for women’s ordination using Scripture.

I don't see LMC as mainline, because it generally does not associate with mainline churches. Children of LMC parents marry other evangelicals. Many MC USA churches affiliate with other mainline denominations in interfaith organizations, etc. At a MC USA church in my area, a UCC pastor served as an interim pastor until they found a pastor.

Here is my tentative taxonomy for assimilated Anabaptists

Conservative evangelical Anabaptists - Rosedale, parts of LMC and Brethren in Christ. Do not ordain women, Lean more towards fundamentalism, inerrancy.
Neo-evangelical Anabaptists - The majority of LMC and Brethren in Christ, a few exiting MC USA congregations. Ordain women. Less fundamentalist, open to neo-evangelical biblical interpretation. Pastors go to seminary at places like Gordon Conwell or Fuller Seminary

Conservative mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks. Holding onto more theological orthodoxy
Moderate mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Affirm and celebrate same-sex marriage. Use the language of Christianity. Not sure what they believe about the Bible. Embrace and celebrate doubt, curiosity over certainty
Progressive mainline - Some percentage of MC USA and COB. Same-sex marriage is a justice issue, and the traditional position is oppressive. May or may not believe in the divinity of Jesus

[Ernie]

Here is my tentative taxonomy for assimilated Anabaptists
Conservative mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Accept practicing LGBTQ folks in the church, but do not celebrate LGBTQ or ordain such folks. Holding onto more theological orthodoxy
Moderate mainline - Large chunk of MC USA and COB. Affirm and celebrate same-sex marriage. Use the language of Christianity. Not sure what they believe about the Bible. Embrace and celebrate doubt, curiosity over certainty
Progressive mainline - Some percentage of MC USA and COB. Same-sex marriage is a justice issue, and the traditional position is oppressive. May or may not believe in the divinity of Jesus

Thanks for that, Cooper. Do most pastors in Mainline Anabaptist churches go to seminary? If so, which seminaries for each category?

[cooper]

Thanks for that, Cooper. Do most pastors in Mainline Anabaptist churches go to seminary? If so, which seminaries for each category?

Mainline pastors are much more likely to be seminary educated than evangelical Anabaptists. This categorization business is a little arbitrary, life is a lot messier. Probably the more conservative and moderate mainline Anabaptists are more likely to come from places like Fuller or denominational seminaries like Eastern Mennonite Seminary, AMBS, or for COB Bethany Seminary. For the more progressive mainline Anabaptist pastors, they are more likely to study outside Anabaptist seminaries. Lancaster Theological Seminary (UCC), Princeton Theological Seminary (PC USA) etc.

[Ken]

There seems to be a consensus on this forum that women’s ordination is a marker of mainline identity. I disagree. All mainline churches ordain women, but not all churches that ordain women are mainline. The Assemblies of God ordains women, and they are not mainline. Denominations do not ordain women for the same reasons. Many mainline churches see women’s ordination as a justice issue. Denominations like the Assemblies of God and LMC have a higher view of Biblical authority and make their case for women’s ordination using Scripture.

That may not be true in the wider Protestant world. But I think it is a pretty true marker in the Anabaptist/Mennonite world.

[JohnH]

Women's ordination in Anabaptist circles is simply fundamentally different from other groups. For example, conservative Holiness Methodist groups like the ones who run Allegheny Wesleyan College life a lifestyle that is essentially the same as fundamental-conservative Anabaptists, yet they have always ordained women are completely comfortable with it. The same is true of Oneness Pentecostals, whose lifestyles are equal to or more conservative than fundamental-conservatives, and they have also been ordaining women for 100 years, although it is not very common, and they wouldn't be ordained as a bishop alone (but they might do so as part of a married couple). (In this sense, they are very similar Lancaster Conference.)

Cooper, overall, I like your nuances and terminology. I never particularly liked the term "theological-conservative Mennonites", since a lot of their theology wasn't conservative in a Mennonite sense at all. However, "conservative evangelical Anabaptists" is a somewhat confusing term. I'm not sure what a better one would be. The term "conservative" applied to any non-plain groups is going to confuse a lot of people.