Household Electrical System Questions

[Neto]

Ken, I'm also curious about the newer (standard?) of 4 wire 220. Do the newer service panels accommodate that in some way, or is the "extra wire" connected at the main panel with the Neutral in the older 3-wire standard? (We have a small camper, but it's a 3-wire system as well, but I think that's still just 110 - not sure now. I just plug it into the receptacle of the same design. My son-in-law has a larger generator that is also 4-wire, but when we were out of power for an extended time and borrowed it, he just made an adapter to go from his 4-wire design to an electric dryer cable. That's where we plugged it into our house current. We do have a small generator, but we couldn't run things like the 220 water heater on that, or the 220 oven.)

[Ken]

Ken, I'm also curious about the newer (standard?) of 4 wire 220. Do the newer service panels accommodate that in some way, or is the "extra wire" connected at the main panel with the Neutral in the older 3-wire standard? (We have a small camper, but it's a 3-wire system as well, but I think that's still just 110 - not sure now. I just plug it into the receptacle of the same design. My son-in-law has a larger generator that is also 4-wire, but when we were out of power for an extended time and borrowed it, he just made an adapter to go from his 4-wire design to an electric dryer cable. That's where we plugged it into our house current. We do have a small generator, but we couldn't run things like the 220 water heater on that, or the 220 oven.)

3-wire 220 volt is just 2 hot wires (red and black) and a combined neutral/ground. 3-wire service is mostly stuff that just drives a heating coil like an oven or water heater or a welder.

4-wire 220 volt has the same red and black hot wires but separates the neutral and ground into two wires which is typically necessary (or better) for appliances with motors like a dryer that require a balanced load for the motor to run properly.

Older houses typically have 3 wire oven outlets and 4 wire dryer outlets but most new houses are now 4 wires for everything because they are now doing things like putting fan motors into ovens to make them convection ovens and stuff like that.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I need some help with repairing the electrical system at the house where we will eventually be moving. (We bought out the other heirs to my wife's dad's house.) I contacted an electrician company here in the area, but they told me that they do not do residential work anymore, and the person I talked with there (my wife's niece's husband, and possibly a part owner of that business) could not even think of anyone who will accept residential jobs.
I wanted someone to come out and look at the electric panel configuration, because
a.) the house was built in 1965 and many circuits are only 2-wire (no ground) [My folks built the year before, and EVERYTHING is grounded in that house],
b.) there was an electrical fire in the box at one time and there are what appear to me to be 'irregularities' in the wiring (two terminal boxes with wires going in and out, like massive junction boxes), and I have found circuits elsewhere in the house that are breaking off 110 from one side of a 220 circuit.
c.) a second panel is all double breakers (for 220), but some of these double breakers are supplying separate circuits. I wonder what would happen if one of these circuits experienced a short, and needed to throw the breaker. Would it be able to throw the switch, when it is connected to the other leg of the 220 service?

Questions (Yeah, I know, some have already slipped into the section above.):
1.) Neutral & Ground. In Brazil, which uses a simple 2-wire system, I was advised to add a separate terminal bar in the electric panel for the Neutral. Some people were just connecting the ground wire (on US grounded plugs) to the neutral terminal on the receptacle itself, but our maintenance guy said that while the neutral is grounded at the transformer, the two should be kept separate everywhere in the house - at the receptacles, in the electric supply panel and in the meter box. Here in our house the Neutral and Ground wires are all connected to the same terminal strip in the electric panel. Is that acceptable? If so, what is the difference between doing it there as oppose to connecting the ground and neutral at the receptacle?

2.) I experienced some 'shocking discoveries' at a light fixture box where there were 8 different cables going in. The actual light service wire was not connected to the rest of these wires in any way. There were 3 live wires in that 'junction box', one of which was a white wire. (THAT was shocking, in more ways than one.)

3.) How many receptacles can be on a single 15 or 20 amp breaker? (The area I'm dealing with now is a bedroom, with a hall receptacle, and the light in a small coat closet near the front entrance. Can I add in the service for the office as well? Should I install a completely separate circuit for electronic equipment, computer, etc? I did this in the house where we are currently living, but now there are other computers connected to a couple of other circuits.)

If anyone here is able to help me on this, I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future. So beware.... I have done a fair bit of electrical work in the past, but am not in any way an electrician. I DID attempt to get a professional in, but apparently no one wants to do non-commercial work, unless on new construction.

Check this house for aluminum wire! It was done right when it was permitted, and was a “less expensive alternative “ to copper. If you find it, get rid of it. Major fire hazard.

When I was working as a helper, it was 10 on a 15 amp and 15 on a 20. I really don’t think the NEC at the time made that specification, but it was what the boss wanted. I wired my lower level that way.

Also Federal Pacific panels/breakers have a reputation for never tripping. You might want to consider replacing these if you have them.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Ken, I'm also curious about the newer (standard?) of 4 wire 220. Do the newer service panels accommodate that in some way, or is the "extra wire" connected at the main panel with the Neutral in the older 3-wire standard? (We have a small camper, but it's a 3-wire system as well, but I think that's still just 110 - not sure now. I just plug it into the receptacle of the same design. My son-in-law has a larger generator that is also 4-wire, but when we were out of power for an extended time and borrowed it, he just made an adapter to go from his 4-wire design to an electric dryer cable. That's where we plugged it into our house current. We do have a small generator, but we couldn't run things like the 220 water heater on that, or the 220 oven.)

3-wire 220 volt is just 2 hot wires (red and black) and a combined neutral/ground. 3-wire service is mostly stuff that just drives a heating coil like an oven or water heater or a welder.

4-wire 220 volt has the same red and black hot wires but separates the neutral and ground into two wires which is typically necessary (or better) for appliances with motors like a dryer that require a balanced load for the motor to run properly.

Older houses typically have 3 wire oven outlets and 4 wire dryer outlets but most new houses are now 4 wires for everything because they are now doing things like putting fan motors into ovens to make them convection ovens and stuff like that.

But if it is 220 for a cooktop or a AC, I think also most electric water heaters as well, you will only have the two sides of 220 and a bare ground. Installer is SUPPOSED to wrap the “white” wire with electrical tape to indicate it is not a neutral. I did it. Never seen anyone else……

[Neto]

I need some help with repairing the electrical system at the house where we will eventually be moving. (We bought out the other heirs to my wife's dad's house.) I contacted an electrician company here in the area, but they told me that they do not do residential work anymore, and the person I talked with there (my wife's niece's husband, and possibly a part owner of that business) could not even think of anyone who will accept residential jobs.
I wanted someone to come out and look at the electric panel configuration, because
a.) the house was built in 1965 and many circuits are only 2-wire (no ground) [My folks built the year before, and EVERYTHING is grounded in that house],
b.) there was an electrical fire in the box at one time and there are what appear to me to be 'irregularities' in the wiring (two terminal boxes with wires going in and out, like massive junction boxes), and I have found circuits elsewhere in the house that are breaking off 110 from one side of a 220 circuit.
c.) a second panel is all double breakers (for 220), but some of these double breakers are supplying separate circuits. I wonder what would happen if one of these circuits experienced a short, and needed to throw the breaker. Would it be able to throw the switch, when it is connected to the other leg of the 220 service?

Questions (Yeah, I know, some have already slipped into the section above.):
1.) Neutral & Ground. In Brazil, which uses a simple 2-wire system, I was advised to add a separate terminal bar in the electric panel for the Neutral. Some people were just connecting the ground wire (on US grounded plugs) to the neutral terminal on the receptacle itself, but our maintenance guy said that while the neutral is grounded at the transformer, the two should be kept separate everywhere in the house - at the receptacles, in the electric supply panel and in the meter box. Here in our house the Neutral and Ground wires are all connected to the same terminal strip in the electric panel. Is that acceptable? If so, what is the difference between doing it there as oppose to connecting the ground and neutral at the receptacle?

2.) I experienced some 'shocking discoveries' at a light fixture box where there were 8 different cables going in. The actual light service wire was not connected to the rest of these wires in any way. There were 3 live wires in that 'junction box', one of which was a white wire. (THAT was shocking, in more ways than one.)

3.) How many receptacles can be on a single 15 or 20 amp breaker? (The area I'm dealing with now is a bedroom, with a hall receptacle, and the light in a small coat closet near the front entrance. Can I add in the service for the office as well? Should I install a completely separate circuit for electronic equipment, computer, etc? I did this in the house where we are currently living, but now there are other computers connected to a couple of other circuits.)

If anyone here is able to help me on this, I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future. So beware.... I have done a fair bit of electrical work in the past, but am not in any way an electrician. I DID attempt to get a professional in, but apparently no one wants to do non-commercial work, unless on new construction.

Check this house for aluminum wire! It was done right when it was permitted, and was a “less expensive alternative “ to copper. If you find it, get rid of it. Major fire hazard.

When I was working as a helper, it was 10 on a 15 amp and 15 on a 20. I really don’t think the NEC at the time made that specification, but it was what the boss wanted. I wired my lower level that way.

Also Federal Pacific panels/breakers have a reputation for never tripping. You might want to consider replacing these if you have them.

Yes, I've found some aluminum wire, both 220 V circuits. I've pulled one out already, and the other one is no longer in use, but the wire is huge, and I need to figure out a way to get it out w/o touching anything that's 'hot'.

[Neto]

Ken, I'm also curious about the newer (standard?) of 4 wire 220. Do the newer service panels accommodate that in some way, or is the "extra wire" connected at the main panel with the Neutral in the older 3-wire standard? (We have a small camper, but it's a 3-wire system as well, but I think that's still just 110 - not sure now. I just plug it into the receptacle of the same design. My son-in-law has a larger generator that is also 4-wire, but when we were out of power for an extended time and borrowed it, he just made an adapter to go from his 4-wire design to an electric dryer cable. That's where we plugged it into our house current. We do have a small generator, but we couldn't run things like the 220 water heater on that, or the 220 oven.)

3-wire 220 volt is just 2 hot wires (red and black) and a combined neutral/ground. 3-wire service is mostly stuff that just drives a heating coil like an oven or water heater or a welder.

4-wire 220 volt has the same red and black hot wires but separates the neutral and ground into two wires which is typically necessary (or better) for appliances with motors like a dryer that require a balanced load for the motor to run properly.

Older houses typically have 3 wire oven outlets and 4 wire dryer outlets but most new houses are now 4 wires for everything because they are now doing things like putting fan motors into ovens to make them convection ovens and stuff like that.

But if it is 220 for a cooktop or a AC, I think also most electric water heaters as well, you will only have the two sides of 220 and a bare ground. Installer is SUPPOSED to wrap the “white” wire with electrical tape to indicate it is not a neutral. I did it. Never seen anyone else……

That was one of my 'shocking experiences' up in the attic....
Turned out to lead back to a 220 double breaker set. I've wondered now what would happen if one of these two circuits experienced a short, would the one circuit be able to throw the breaker, or would the one it is bonded to prevent it from cutting the current?

[JohnH]

My water heater has the white wire just capped off (I put a wire nut on it) and then the green wire tied to ground on the water heater.

Of course, half the barn just has 2-wire plugs. Half of ‘em with the neutral on the “wrong” side.

[Ken]

Ken, I'm also curious about the newer (standard?) of 4 wire 220. Do the newer service panels accommodate that in some way, or is the "extra wire" connected at the main panel with the Neutral in the older 3-wire standard? (We have a small camper, but it's a 3-wire system as well, but I think that's still just 110 - not sure now. I just plug it into the receptacle of the same design. My son-in-law has a larger generator that is also 4-wire, but when we were out of power for an extended time and borrowed it, he just made an adapter to go from his 4-wire design to an electric dryer cable. That's where we plugged it into our house current. We do have a small generator, but we couldn't run things like the 220 water heater on that, or the 220 oven.)

3-wire 220 volt is just 2 hot wires (red and black) and a combined neutral/ground. 3-wire service is mostly stuff that just drives a heating coil like an oven or water heater or a welder.

4-wire 220 volt has the same red and black hot wires but separates the neutral and ground into two wires which is typically necessary (or better) for appliances with motors like a dryer that require a balanced load for the motor to run properly.

Older houses typically have 3 wire oven outlets and 4 wire dryer outlets but most new houses are now 4 wires for everything because they are now doing things like putting fan motors into ovens to make them convection ovens and stuff like that.

But if it is 220 for a cooktop or a AC, I think also most electric water heaters as well, you will only have the two sides of 220 and a bare ground. Installer is SUPPOSED to wrap the “white” wire with electrical tape to indicate it is not a neutral. I did it. Never seen anyone else……

Now days they are more likely to just put in the 4-prong plug on the wall in the range cutout in the kitchen to "future proof it" and then if the range doesn't require a neutral lead they just swap out the cord for a 4-prong one and group the ground and neutral as shown above

[Robert]

Neto, sounds like I need to plan a trip to your house.

What is your time table on moving in?

Wife gets her Ablation June 3rd. It will have to be a weekend trip after that, but I think we are pretty close to you (Texas talk meaning within 8 hours drive).

Maybe we can plan a MennoMeet at the same time and get some hands on deck.

Ground is a safety wire to take any static electricity or short back to the box and not through you. Many older homes do not have ground wires. Pulling new wire is not always easy when buried in a wall. There are a few things one can do to solve that.

Any aluminum wiring should be removed. Make sure it is not coated but aluminum all through. The challenge with aluminum wiring is when connected to copper, there is a build up of corrosion and the connection will break down over time. It takes years, but it happens. Special connecters are needed when connecting aluminum with copper. Once you use the right connector, problem solved. All main utility lines are aluminum. So no problem running power, just the corrosion issue.

If you take a picture and text it to me, or post it here of the electrical panel, I can guide you on some things from here. Just PM me if you need my number.

[JohnH]

Neto, sounds like I need to plan a trip to your house.

What is your time table on moving in?

Wife gets her Ablation June 3rd. It will have to be a weekend trip after that, but I think we are pretty close to you (Texas talk meaning within 8 hours drive).

If you can get from TX to OH in 8 hours you must also be driving Texas style speed limits.

Maybe we can plan a MennoMeet at the same time and get some hands on deck.

Ground is a safety wire to take any static electricity or short back to the box and not through you. Many older homes do not have ground wires. Pulling new wire is not always easy when buried in a wall. There are a few things one can do to solve that.

Any aluminum wiring should be removed. Make sure it is not coated but aluminum all through. The challenge with aluminum wiring is when connected to copper, there is a build up of corrosion and the connection will break down over time. It takes years, but it happens. Special connecters are needed when connecting aluminum with copper. Once you use the right connector, problem solved. All main utility lines are aluminum. So no problem running power, just the corrosion issue.

If you take a picture and text it to me, or post it here of the electrical panel, I can guide you on some things from here. Just PM me if you need my number.

I have heard if one has aluminium wire with the original outlets, etc. that were designed for it, one is better off just leaving it alone and not touching it. But the problem being - can't mix and match.

Given how $$$ copper wire is now, I would not be surprised to see alum wiring eventually make a come back.