What is the nature of Conservatism

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Praxis+Theodicy
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by Praxis+Theodicy »

barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 4:51 pm I'm not so interested in which AI thinks, but rather what people think. Does anyone wish to put forward a theory for the roots and substance of Conservatism.
Political conservatism is simply that, a political stance that prioritizes conserving what we have. Change is resisted, and accepted at only gradual increments.
These days, what is called conservatism is actually much more like Reactionism or Regressivism. Reactionaries/Regressives want to roll back progress in the hope of bringing back a mythical golden age of their civilization. Conservatives often side with regressives because they are more opposed to progress and what they are unfamiliar with, than they are of regress into what they see as somewhat familiar. So conservatism very easily slips into and is overtaken by regressive political movements.

As others have pointed out, political conservatism is theoretically agnostic when it comes to economic or social ideologies. Conservatives at the end of the Soviet Union would be fighting for to conserve that union, while reformers were working towards changes that would eventually cause it to collapse and build something new. Conservatives in America during the 1800s Civil War era could be found among the Democrat party fighting to keep the chattel slave economy, but in the 1900s could be found in the Republican party fighting to keep segregation in public institutions.

Ideological Conservatism is not actually about conserving the status quo. It is an actual ideology with values and commitments and a consistent worldview. It often overlaps with political conservatism. If someone is an ideological conservative, then they are most likely either a political conservative or a reactionary.
Ideological conservatism is mostly based on the philosophy of the 15th-century political philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who defended the absolute necessity of monarchy over human society in the wake of the English Revolution/English Civil Wars, in which the Parliment went to war and executed the King of England. In the worldview of the ideological conservative, the world of human society is either naturally heirarchical, or must be strictly made to be heirarchical, or else it will perish. Some humans must be brought low and a few must be raised up. These few elites must rule the lessers, as is their right. Otherwise, society falls to chaos, anarchy, destruction... what the conservative calls "leviathan". Anything that seems to be "flattening" society, tumbling heirarchies, is seen as dangerous and destructive to the experiment of human civilization. Anything that is an institutionalized heirarchy is defended in the name of ideological conservatism, until it is finally gone.
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JohnH
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by JohnH »

Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 8:27 pm.lConservatives in America during the 1800s Civil War era could be found among the Democrat party fighting to keep the chattel slave economy, but in the 1900s could be found in the Republican party fighting to keep segregation in public institutions.
Did you mean “Democratic party” here, since southern Democrats were the ones primarily trying to keep the Jim Crow south system in the 1960s?
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by barnhart »

Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 8:27 pm
barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 4:51 pm I'm not so interested in which AI thinks, but rather what people think. Does anyone wish to put forward a theory for the roots and substance of Conservatism.
Political conservatism is simply that, a political stance that prioritizes conserving what we have. Change is resisted, and accepted at only gradual increments.
These days, what is called conservatism is actually much more like Reactionism or Regressivism. Reactionaries/Regressives want to roll back progress in the hope of bringing back a mythical golden age of their civilization. Conservatives often side with regressives because they are more opposed to progress and what they are unfamiliar with, than they are of regress into what they see as somewhat familiar. So conservatism very easily slips into and is overtaken by regressive political movements.

As others have pointed out, political conservatism is theoretically agnostic when it comes to economic or social ideologies. Conservatives at the end of the Soviet Union would be fighting for to conserve that union, while reformers were working towards changes that would eventually cause it to collapse and build something new. Conservatives in America during the 1800s Civil War era could be found among the Democrat party fighting to keep the chattel slave economy, but in the 1900s could be found in the Republican party fighting to keep segregation in public institutions.

Ideological Conservatism is not actually about conserving the status quo. It is an actual ideology with values and commitments and a consistent worldview. It often overlaps with political conservatism. If someone is an ideological conservative, then they are most likely either a political conservative or a reactionary.
Ideological conservatism is mostly based on the philosophy of the 15th-century political philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who defended the absolute necessity of monarchy over human society in the wake of the English Revolution/English Civil Wars, in which the Parliment went to war and executed the King of England. In the worldview of the ideological conservative, the world of human society is either naturally heirarchical, or must be strictly made to be heirarchical, or else it will perish. Some humans must be brought low and a few must be raised up. These few elites must rule the lessers, as is their right. Otherwise, society falls to chaos, anarchy, destruction... what the conservative calls "leviathan". Anything that seems to be "flattening" society, tumbling heirarchies, is seen as dangerous and destructive to the experiment of human civilization. Anything that is an institutionalized heirarchy is defended in the name of ideological conservatism, until it is finally gone.
Interesting. And helpful, especially the division between two types of Conservatism. I need to think about it before responding.
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by Praxis+Theodicy »

JohnH wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 9:12 pm
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Sun May 04, 2025 8:27 pm.lConservatives in America during the 1800s Civil War era could be found among the Democrat party fighting to keep the chattel slave economy, but in the 1900s could be found in the Republican party fighting to keep segregation in public institutions.
Did you mean “Democratic party” here, since southern Democrats were the ones primarily trying to keep the Jim Crow south system in the 1960s?
You're right, my timeline was off. It was the 1970s, not the 1960s, when the parties seemingly switched ideologies, at least on racial issues.
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

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barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 11:12 am I would like to see what people judge to be the essence of political Conservatism. What is it at the root, where does it begin, what are the guiding principles, who are the leading figures and what did they contribute. This is intended to be a look back, hence the placement in the history forum.
A main contributor at the Dispatch just had a column on this... "Don't Call This Conservatism" (I realize this may be paywalled for all or some...) But it covered the history your questions are asking about. It reiterated again for me; that at least on a disposition level and/or for many issues, I am a kind of conservative...

The column made the historical observation that there are numerous camps under the umbrella "right-wing" which "conservative" can be one of them. But you can also be a "conservative" on the left-of-center part of the spectrum as well, based on context.

I really liked the commentator's explanation of G K Chesterton's fences...
"The Catholic philosopher G.K. Chesterton provides one of the best illustrations of a kind of conservatism in his parable of the fence, which first appeared in his 1929 book The Thing:
' 'There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it." '
Chesterton is clearly not opposed to reform. His point is humbler than that. Reform may be necessary, but you first must know why it is necessary, and you must understand what you are reforming and how to reform it. Find out why the fence is there first, and if you learn it no longer serves its original—or some other—useful purpose, perhaps the fence should come down. But perhaps not. Maybe it’s not worth the effort. Every action should be subject to some kind of cost-benefit analysis. The time and expense you spend dismantling the fence might be better spent elsewhere. Change may be necessary, but change for its own sake is not reason enough. And it certainly isn’t conservative. In short, conservatism is a way of making decisions, which includes deciding to do nothing.
(He then illustrated how the modern current event, Elon Musk's DOGE, is NOT an example of conservatism...especially in the spirit of Chesterton conservatism.

He went on to further breakdown "conservatism" into three kinds.... which I may post about later. (One of these kinds is where I find myself, for many or some issues, disposition-wise, a conservative.
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by barnhart »

Chesterton's fence is an appealing analogy but I can also imagine it being employed to defend terrible things like institutionalized segregation. I guess the value is knowing when to deploy it.
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

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Jazman wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 7:25 am (He then illustrated how the modern current event, Elon Musk's DOGE, is NOT an example of conservatism...especially in the spirit of Chesterton conservatism.
If DOGE isn’t conservatism, then why is so supported (even enthusiastically) by people who identify themselves as conservatives?
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by barnhart »

Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 1:40 pm
Jazman wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 7:25 am (He then illustrated how the modern current event, Elon Musk's DOGE, is NOT an example of conservatism...especially in the spirit of Chesterton conservatism.
If DOGE isn’t conservatism, then why is so supported (even enthusiastically) by people who identify themselves as conservatives?
This is why I started this thread. It seems the definition of Conservatism is being stretched beyond what I can recognize.
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by JohnH »

Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 1:40 pm
Jazman wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 7:25 am (He then illustrated how the modern current event, Elon Musk's DOGE, is NOT an example of conservatism...especially in the spirit of Chesterton conservatism.
If DOGE isn’t conservatism, then why is so supported (even enthusiastically) by people who identify themselves as conservatives?
Cutting pointless federal spending (like NPR/PBS) is definitely a conservative political position.

I do wonder why anyone is bring in up DOGE in the History subforum, though.
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Re: What is the nature of Conservatism

Post by Szdfan »

barnhart wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 2:45 pm
Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 1:40 pm
Jazman wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 7:25 am (He then illustrated how the modern current event, Elon Musk's DOGE, is NOT an example of conservatism...especially in the spirit of Chesterton conservatism.
If DOGE isn’t conservatism, then why is so supported (even enthusiastically) by people who identify themselves as conservatives?
This is why I started this thread. It seems the definition of Conservatism is being stretched beyond what I can recognize.
I think it's possible to have conservative goals and ideology, but to try and accomplish them in radical ways. The ideological heart of MAGA (literally Make America Great Again) is to return the US back to some sort of vague mythological past socially, economically and politically. That's conservative.

But it's also willing to engage in tactics and strategies that break and disrupt things. That's radical.

I think it's important to also remember that labels like "liberal" or "conservative" are contextual and don't always appear the same.
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"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."

-- Isaiah 10:1-2
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