Anabaptist teaching on pride vs humility?

[Grace]

I have to say, asan outsider I was perplexed by the focus on pride in Anabaptist circles when I first moved among them. I mean, how can these plain folks have pride issues. Nor am I suggesting I did not feel it could exist among worldly folks. But why such an emphasis.

It will probably be controversial that after some time, Indo think it is 8ndeed a bigger issue in Anabaptist circles. Oh, not the pride you see in the world of “ I went to Harvard” or “I made Vice President “ or “my kid is captain of the football team”.

Ironically I do think many in these circles in fact miss their biggest pride issues. Never seen such family pride, or pride over ministerial eelatu8nships, etc.

Not sure about the spelling of that last word. But I agree. I have seen some pride amongst some conservative Anabaptists. And I have seen so much pride about our youth. We had a preacher/teacher teach at our summer Bible School, (also a pastor in a sister church) who was involved in IGO. He sure bragged about the IGO Bible School and its young people. At one point he said that the IGO students are the "cream of the crop". I am sorry but I have seen many commendable young people who DIDN'T attend IGO. Young people who didn't travel halfway around the world but made a difference here stateside and in their local communities.

https://www.igoasia.org/

[Neto]

I have to say, asan outsider I was perplexed by the focus on pride in Anabaptist circles when I first moved among them. I mean, how can these plain folks have pride issues. Nor am I suggesting I did not feel it could exist among worldly folks. But why such an emphasis.

It will probably be controversial that after some time, Indo think it is 8ndeed a bigger issue in Anabaptist circles. Oh, not the pride you see in the world of “ I went to Harvard” or “I made Vice President “ or “my kid is captain of the football team”.

Ironically I do think many in these circles in fact miss their biggest pride issues. Never seen such family pride, or pride over ministerial eelatu8nships, etc.

Not sure about the spelling of that last word. But I agree. I have seen some pride amongst some conservative Anabaptists. And I have seen so much pride about our youth. We had a preacher/teacher teach at our summer Bible School, (also a pastor in a sister church) who was involved in IGO. He sure bragged about the IGO Bible School and its young people. At one point he said that the IGO students are the "cream of the crop". I am sorry but I have seen many commendable young people who DIDN'T attend IGO. Young people who didn't travel halfway around the world but made a difference here stateside and in their local communities.

https://www.igoasia.org/

From the point of view of a former 'career missionary' - It is neither pleasant nor beneficial to missionaries to be "put on a pedestal" (so to speak).

Personally, I hated it. It produces a temptation toward pride. It thwarts (or at least makes more difficult) the task of the missionary to give a challenge for others to join the efforts of cross-cultural ministry. It cuts the missionary off from receiving encouragement in dealing with the challenges of cross-linguistic & cross-cultural ministry. (One thing we heard too often was "Oh, I know that the [heat - or plug in just about anything unpleasant] doesn't bother you - You're used to it." Then the person immediately walks away.) One person who only spoke a bit of English once told us "They no have; You no need." (That was before we moved to Brazil - it might have been about a refrigerator. But now I DO agree: "They didn't have; We didn't need.")

[Robert]

For me, this touches on humility.

[sojourner]

I have to say, asan outsider I was perplexed by the focus on pride in Anabaptist circles when I first moved among them. I mean, how can these plain folks have pride issues. Nor am I suggesting I did not feel it could exist among worldly folks. But why such an emphasis.

It will probably be controversial that after some time, Indo think it is 8ndeed a bigger issue in Anabaptist circles. Oh, not the pride you see in the world of “ I went to Harvard” or “I made Vice President “ or “my kid is captain of the football team”.

Ironically I do think many in these circles in fact miss their biggest pride issues. Never seen such family pride, or pride over ministerial eelatu8nships, etc.

Not sure about the spelling of that last word. But I agree. I have seen some pride amongst some conservative Anabaptists. And I have seen so much pride about our youth. We had a preacher/teacher teach at our summer Bible School, (also a pastor in a sister church) who was involved in IGO. He sure bragged about the IGO Bible School and its young people. At one point he said that the IGO students are the "cream of the crop". I am sorry but I have seen many commendable young people who DIDN'T attend IGO. Young people who didn't travel halfway around the world but made a difference here stateside and in their local communities.

https://www.igoasia.org/

Since you've mentioned this preacher multiple times and made little effort to conceal his identity I guess I'll give my 3 cents.
I think sometimes how people come across and who they really are, is not the same. I would suggest a little more grace.
This individual is a well respected man among his peers. At least I haven't heard anything different. Although at times I did think he came across as cocky, I wasn't offended by it. I think it's just his style.
As Igo alumni, the students there are as human as anyone. I also overheard a former student refer to them as "cream of the crop".
Not all students attend Igo for the same reason. Some indeed have a life of foreign ministry in mind. Others just go for the experience ect.
As I have watched the journey of former students, I see that indeed some are the "cream of the crop". Others, sadly, have lost their way.
Without data to back it up, I would surmise on average Igo doesn't produce more godly or zealous people than the average conservative church.
However, it is very beneficial for those that have an interest in particular for foreign missions.

[Grace]

I have to say, asan outsider I was perplexed by the focus on pride in Anabaptist circles when I first moved among them. I mean, how can these plain folks have pride issues. Nor am I suggesting I did not feel it could exist among worldly folks. But why such an emphasis.

It will probably be controversial that after some time, Indo think it is 8ndeed a bigger issue in Anabaptist circles. Oh, not the pride you see in the world of “ I went to Harvard” or “I made Vice President “ or “my kid is captain of the football team”.

Ironically I do think many in these circles in fact miss their biggest pride issues. Never seen such family pride, or pride over ministerial eelatu8nships, etc.

Not sure about the spelling of that last word. But I agree. I have seen some pride amongst some conservative Anabaptists. And I have seen so much pride about our youth. We had a preacher/teacher teach at our summer Bible School, (also a pastor in a sister church) who was involved in IGO. He sure bragged about the IGO Bible School and its young people. At one point he said that the IGO students are the "cream of the crop". I am sorry but I have seen many commendable young people who DIDN'T attend IGO. Young people who didn't travel halfway around the world but made a difference here stateside and in their local communities.

https://www.igoasia.org/

Since you've mentioned this preacher multiple times and made little effort to conceal his identity I guess I'll give my 3 cents.
I think sometimes how people come across and who they really are, is not the same. I would suggest a little more grace.
This individual is a well respected man among his peers. At least I haven't heard anything different. Although at times I did think he came across as cocky, I wasn't offended by it. I think it's just his style.
As Igo alumni, the students there are as human as anyone. I also overheard a former student refer to them as "cream of the crop".
Not all students attend Igo for the same reason. Some indeed have a life of foreign ministry in mind. Others just go for the experience ect.
As I have watched the journey of former students, I see that indeed some are the "cream of the crop". Others, sadly, have lost their way.
Without data to back it up, I would surmise on average Igo doesn't produce more godly or zealous people than the average conservative church.
However, it is very beneficial for those that have an interest in particular for foreign missions.

I didn't mention the Indvidual I was talking about in my post. And yes, I need more grace. I also know there have been many outstanding young people who have been involved with IGo. But we do need to guard against overlooking the sin of pride and excuse it as "just their style".

[JayP]

I appreciate the various comments but I wonder if my original point came across. When I talk about Pride in conservative Mennonite churches it is a pride that does not manifest itself quite as openly as the bragging kind. It is more of a quiet but very strong pride.

An example would be I see men nominated for the lot that I have known well. And they are no,inated instead of other men who I think have much better qualities. Except for the fa,ily they are from. Or the nominated one’s wife is the daughter of a bishop. Not that talent or ability may not run in some families, but gosh it sure seems to runSTRONG in some LOL

Or after so and so did not get picked in the lot. Look who is asked to go “help” by moving to a new congregation that we all know in 2-3 years will need a minister ordination.

In various settings it seems less important WHAT is said in terms of gathering support than WHO says it.

The family pride and confidence is truly astounding

[JohnH]

I'm not even in those circles but I have heard IGo spoken of in very glowing terms, much as Grace is describing. I think we do ourselves a disservice to do this kind of thing. (Of course, many know I am wary of para-church agencies such as IGo, but I don't want to pick on them in particular; this is overall a moderate-conservative Anabaptist disease; one can observe the pandemic in full swing at REACH.)

One of the challenges of setting up institutions is that, well, some will end up being "better" than others. I think this is why God didn't order us to run around creating organizations and institutions. Instead, he established the church, and asked us to humble ourselves in our congregations, learning how to be a servant even as he was to us.

[JohnH]

I appreciate the various comments but I wonder if my original point came across. When I talk about Pride in conservative Mennonite churches it is a pride that does not manifest itself quite as openly as the bragging kind. It is more of a quiet but very strong pride.

An example would be I see men nominated for the lot that I have known well. And they are no,inated instead of other men who I think have much better qualities. Except for the fa,ily they are from. Or the nominated one’s wife is the daughter of a bishop. Not that talent or ability may not run in some families, but gosh it sure seems to runSTRONG in some LOL

Or after so and so did not get picked in the lot. Look who is asked to go “help” by moving to a new congregation that we all know in 2-3 years will need a minister ordination.

In various settings it seems less important WHAT is said in terms of gathering support than WHO says it.

The family pride and confidence is truly astounding

What you are describing is primarily an Eastern thing. If you polled the rest of conservative Mennonitedom, they'd probably agree there is a rather major pride problem in Eastern circles. I mean, this is the same institution that is widely believed to have had fraudulent nominations and fraudulent lots. I really do not understand how anyone can handle staying in that organization, but nonetheless, many do.

It is beyond absurd when one looks at a list of who has been ordained, who the bishops are, etc., and you just see the same last names over and over, and often the first names too. I really wonder how such people can truly feel they were "called". It would be more accurate to describe their leadership structure as a self-perpetuating board.

Anyway, the above problems are why things like Pilgrim exist.

[sojourner]

Not sure about the spelling of that last word. But I agree. I have seen some pride amongst some conservative Anabaptists. And I have seen so much pride about our youth. We had a preacher/teacher teach at our summer Bible School, (also a pastor in a sister church) who was involved in IGO. He sure bragged about the IGO Bible School and its young people. At one point he said that the IGO students are the "cream of the crop". I am sorry but I have seen many commendable young people who DIDN'T attend IGO. Young people who didn't travel halfway around the world but made a difference here stateside and in their local communities.

https://www.igoasia.org/

Since you've mentioned this preacher multiple times and made little effort to conceal his identity I guess I'll give my 3 cents.
I think sometimes how people come across and who they really are, is not the same. I would suggest a little more grace.
This individual is a well respected man among his peers. At least I haven't heard anything different. Although at times I did think he came across as cocky, I wasn't offended by it. I think it's just his style.
As Igo alumni, the students there are as human as anyone. I also overheard a former student refer to them as "cream of the crop".
Not all students attend Igo for the same reason. Some indeed have a life of foreign ministry in mind. Others just go for the experience ect.
As I have watched the journey of former students, I see that indeed some are the "cream of the crop". Others, sadly, have lost their way.
Without data to back it up, I would surmise on average Igo doesn't produce more godly or zealous people than the average conservative church.
However, it is very beneficial for those that have an interest in particular for foreign missions.

I didn't mention the Indvidual I was talking about in my post or any time before. I am confused why Christians would overlook the sin pride and excuse it as "just their style".

No, you didn't mention his name but it wasn't difficult to figure out by what you wrote previously. But I digress.
I wouldn't overlook sin. What I attributed to his style was being a bit brash at times. I don't remember him bragging about various things ect.
I do see him as an ordained leader by God. I don't want to take that lightly. Apparently enough people have faith in him that he hasn't been removed from office...

[Grace]

No, you didn't mention his name but it wasn't difficult to figure out by what you wrote previously. But I digress.
I wouldn't overlook sin. What I attributed to his style was being a bit brash at times. I don't remember him bragging about various things ect.
I do see him as an ordained leader by God. I don't want to take that lightly. Apparently enough people have faith in him that he hasn't been removed from office...

And I will do better and have more grace. You are right our leaders, are ordained by God, and that shouldn't be taken lightly.