Lily philips and the disgrace of pornography

[JohnH]

I understand your position, I think. Certainly, you have the right to think it should be illegal. Again, I'm absolutely opposed to pornography and all the negative effects it has, but if your "yes" was an affirmation that you think that criminalizing porn will effectively decrease the sinful desires and pursuits of unregenerate men,

That's not my position.

on that I would fundamentally disagree, based on the Word, personal experience, and repeated history. There's a reason we have a New Covenant and not the laws and punishments of the Old Covenant...

OK.

I guess it really comes down to what one expects to accomplish by making it illegal. If it's actually about my personal preferences and comfort level

It's not about my personal preferences or comfort level. The existence of widespread pornography in society doesn't really personally affect me or my family (at the moment) very much. The most I have to deal with is trying to help someone who wants to quit the stuff.

However, I think we should have a great deal of empathy and concern for the victims of pornography, which include the entire industry of how it is produced: it is rife with drug abuse, drug addiction, exploitation of young people, prostitution, and financial exploitation. It is very, very ugly underneath the surface.

My reasons for wanting pornography to be illegal are similar to why I think prostitution should be illegal.

and I just don't want myself or my family have to face open immorality in all its ugliness, it will work for awhile. But if hearts are not converted and convicted to battle against sin, all the criminalization in the world will fail to address the real problem, which the criminalization of immorality cannot address. If nothing else, we should have learned this from the history of the Catholic Church over 1600 years!

Immoral things should still be illegal, though. Murder is immoral. It should also be illegal.

[Ken]

Ken, my concern is more for the exploitation and abuse that performers in pornography undergo than some kind of quest to make it illegal to acquire and consume pornography.

Honestly, I understand the sentiment. But I think it is somewhat of a Sisyphean task to think we can accomplish any of this with respect to porn.

As for the exploitation of porn workers? Maybe some are exploited. But I suspect the majority know exactly what they are doing and simply cashing in on a lucrative industry while they are young. If we were to list the top 100-most exploited professions on the planet (or even within the US) I doubt porn actors will make the list. From what I understand they are generally well-paid and have decent working conditions. They even have a union and do things like negotiate for healthcare and retirement benefits.

and.....

Immoral things should still be illegal, though. Murder is immoral. It should also be illegal.

What is immorality? The Bible provides us with an endless list. From Galatians we have: impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, and orgies. From 1st Timothy we have: "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith". And "But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction." And from Jesus we have: “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

Honestly, Jesus speaks far more about the immorality of greed and wealth than he ever does about the immorality of sex. Is Elon Musk a more immoral individual than some random porn actress? The words of Jesus seems to say so. So should we also make wealth illegal? We could easily move in that direction with a tax code that more resembles Scandinavian countries or the US of the 1950s.

What about the immorality of damaging God's creation? Should we make all pollution illegal? Some would argue it is certainly immoral to pollute our air and water. I could go on and on.

Trying to regulate morality through the legal system obviously runs into practical limits. In this country those limits are defined by the Constitution and the freedom it provides. Simply put, the Constitution places very real limits on the power of the government and provides people with the freedom to behave immorally as it does the freedom to behave morally.

[JohnH]

Ken, my concern is more for the exploitation and abuse that performers in pornography undergo than some kind of quest to make it illegal to acquire and consume pornography.

Honestly, I understand the sentiment. But I think it is somewhat of a Sisyphean task to think we can accomplish any of this with respect to porn.

Yet we don't display this kind of defeatism when it comes to 17 year olds, nor do we display it with 18/19/20 year olds when it comes to buying beer or cigarettes, do we?

As for the exploitation of porn workers? Maybe some are exploited. But I suspect the majority know exactly what they are doing and simply cashing in on a lucrative industry while they are young. If we were to list the top 100-most exploited professions on the planet (or even within the US) I doubt porn actors will make the list. From what I understand they are generally well-paid and have decent working conditions. They even have a union and do things like negotiate for healthcare and retirement benefits.

Ken, I have a very low view of how prostitution works, and I think we all know it is absolutely rife with exploitation. Very few of the people who get involved in it are bettered by it. Most are made a lot worse. And no, it is not a union profession. Most people who work as sex workers are "independent contractors".

and.....

Immoral things should still be illegal, though. Murder is immoral. It should also be illegal.

What is immorality? [snip]

Is Elon Musk a more immoral individual than some random porn actress? The words of Jesus seems to say so. So should we also make wealth illegal? We could easily move in that direction with a tax code that more resembles Scandinavian countries or the US of the 1950s.

I don't think fornication and adultery should be legal either, but that's a different topic. As a society, we have, apparently, decided that conduct like Musk's is entirely acceptable. I think it shouldn't be.

Trying to regulate morality through the legal system obviously runs into practical limits. In this country those limits are defined by the Constitution and the freedom it provides.

The Bible doesn't say anything about cigarettes or hard drugs, but I don't think hard drugs should be legal at all. I don't think it's good for people to be able to buy street fentanyl, for example, sell it, or use it.

Likewise, I think tobacco should be restricted. High taxes, making it hard to buy, and making it difficult for children and young adults to get it is important. I think this is part of having a healthy society that restricts or prohibits things that are obviously immoral, and selling tobacco that is intentionally designed to be addictive to children and young adults is immoral. I believe it should also be illegal.

Simply put, the Constitution places very real limits on the power of the government and provides people with the freedom to behave immorally as it does the freedom to behave morally.

I don't think the Constitution puts limits on outlawing pornography. It was illegal for most of America's history. An activist Supreme Court decided to legislate from the bench to force it to be legal.

[Ken]

Ken, my concern is more for the exploitation and abuse that performers in pornography undergo than some kind of quest to make it illegal to acquire and consume pornography.

Honestly, I understand the sentiment. But I think it is somewhat of a Sisyphean task to think we can accomplish any of this with respect to porn.

Yet we don't display this kind of defeatism when it comes to 17 year olds, nor do we display it with 18/19/20 year olds when it comes to buying beer or cigarettes, do we?

Can teenagers use their phones to download free beer and cigarettes from servers located anywhere on the planet?

If they could, how difficult do you think it would be to control teenage drinking and smoking?

[JohnH]

Can teenagers use their phones to download free beer and cigarettes from servers located anywhere on the planet?

How many times do I have to repeat to you that my concern is for the people involved in the production? I am not talking about distribution here.

I am talking about making distributing it and producing it illegal.

[R7ehr]

Ken, my concern is more for the exploitation and abuse that performers in pornography undergo than some kind of quest to make it illegal to acquire and consume pornography.

Honestly, I understand the sentiment. But I think it is somewhat of a Sisyphean task to think we can accomplish any of this with respect to porn.

Yet we don't display this kind of defeatism when it comes to 17 year olds, nor do we display it with 18/19/20 year olds when it comes to buying beer or cigarettes, do we?

As for the exploitation of porn workers? Maybe some are exploited. But I suspect the majority know exactly what they are doing and simply cashing in on a lucrative industry while they are young. If we were to list the top 100-most exploited professions on the planet (or even within the US) I doubt porn actors will make the list. From what I understand they are generally well-paid and have decent working conditions. They even have a union and do things like negotiate for healthcare and retirement benefits.

Ken, I have a very low view of how prostitution works, and I think we all know it is absolutely rife with exploitation. Very few of the people who get involved in it are bettered by it. Most are made a lot worse. And no, it is not a union profession. Most people who work as sex workers are "independent contractors".

and.....

Immoral things should still be illegal, though. Murder is immoral. It should also be illegal.

What is immorality? [snip]

Is Elon Musk a more immoral individual than some random porn actress? The words of Jesus seems to say so. So should we also make wealth illegal? We could easily move in that direction with a tax code that more resembles Scandinavian countries or the US of the 1950s.

I don't think fornication and adultery should be legal either, but that's a different topic. As a society, we have, apparently, decided that conduct like Musk's is entirely acceptable. I think it shouldn't be.

Trying to regulate morality through the legal system obviously runs into practical limits. In this country those limits are defined by the Constitution and the freedom it provides.

The Bible doesn't say anything about cigarettes or hard drugs, but I don't think hard drugs should be legal at all. I don't think it's good for people to be able to buy street fentanyl, for example, sell it, or use it.

Likewise, I think tobacco should be restricted. High taxes, making it hard to buy, and making it difficult for children and young adults to get it is important. I think this is part of having a healthy society that restricts or prohibits things that are obviously immoral, and selling tobacco that is intentionally designed to be addictive to children and young adults is immoral. I believe it should also be illegal.

Simply put, the Constitution places very real limits on the power of the government and provides people with the freedom to behave immorally as it does the freedom to behave morally.

I don't think the Constitution puts limits on outlawing pornography. It was illegal for most of America's history. An activist Supreme Court decided to legislate from the bench to force it to be legal.

Great points JohnH.

[Ken]

Can teenagers use their phones to download free beer and cigarettes from servers located anywhere on the planet?

How many times do I have to repeat to you that my concern is for the people involved in the production? I am not talking about distribution here.

I am talking about making distributing it and producing it illegal.

So you would be fine with porn as long as it is AI porn and doesn't involve real human actors and actresses?

[JohnH]

So you would be fine with porn as long as it is AI porn and doesn't involve real human actors and actresses?

That would be a different discussion; how about we just keep the goalposts where they are for now?

[Ken]

So you would be fine with porn as long as it is AI porn and doesn't involve real human actors and actresses?

That would be a different discussion; how about we just keep the goalposts where they are for now?

Where are the goalposts now?

You have been all over the map in your comments on this thread. But mostly you have been advocating prohibitions on the ACCESS to porn for moral reasons, not prohibitions on the production of it for human rights/exploitation reasons.

For example, I suspect you would not be be happy with a simple prohibition that banned the production of NEW porn but left all existing porn free for anyone to buy/sell/download. Or would you?

[JohnH]

But mostly you have been advocating prohibitions on the ACCESS to porn for moral reasons, not prohibitions on the production of it for human rights/exploitation reasons.

No, I have not been. I have said pornography should be illegal, full stop.

For example, I suspect you would not be be happy with a simple prohibition that banned the production of NEW porn but left all existing porn free for anyone to buy/sell/download. Or would you?

I would certainly prefer that to the current situation. It would be an improvement.