Lily philips and the disgrace of pornography

[Ken]

The primary difference is that you apparently approve of the one, but not the other.

Firearms and cigarettes aren't the same thing at all, and no, I don't approve of people misusing firearms or shooting each other with them.

However, I do think lawful self defense is lawful, regardless of my own personal feelings on the issue. I don't see a problem with people who lawfully bear arms and don't misuse them.

Do you?

You have been couching this discussion of pornography in terms of good and evil. And not "lawful" vs. "unlawful" Since ordinary pornography is clearly lawful and pornographers have the law on their side. Producing, selling, and consuming porn is perfectly lawful, more so than killing someone in self defense in fact.

As for killing? Killing is evil. It is right there in the 10 Commandments. And my version of the 10 Commandments has no self defense "loophole". Does yours? I specifically mentioned handguns and assault weapons like the AR-15 which designed for one purpose only. To kill people. One could argue that just like porn, they have no redeeming value. As opposed to shotguns or hunting rifles designed for hunting which one could argue are just "tools" for putting food on the table.

On the other hand, my 10 Commandments makes no mention whatsoever of tobacco or porn. So why the desire to legislate morality when it comes to porn but not guns?

[JohnH]

I’m not disputing lawful self-defense. I’m pointing out that you allow nuance with firearms — distinguishing between use and misuse — but deny that same nuance with pornography.

Pray tell, what is "proper use" of pornography as opposed to misuse?

[JohnH]

You have been couching this discussion of pornography in terms of good and evil. And not "lawful" vs. "unlawful" Since ordinary pornography is clearly lawful and pornographers have the law on their side. Producing, selling, and consuming porn is perfectly lawful, more so than killing someone in self defense in fact.

Pornography is both evil and unlawful (regardless of what the Supreme Court says), much as chattels slavery is evil and unlawful.

As for killing? Killing is evil. It is right there in the 10 Commandments. And my version of the 10 Commandments has no self defense "loophole". Does yours?

It most certainly does. The book of the Bible that has the ten commandments lays out when it is lawful and not evil to kill in self defense - or just to kill to wipe out an entire city or people group because God told his people to do so.

I specifically mentioned handguns and assault weapons like the AR-15 which designed for one purpose only. To kill people.

First of all, that isn't their only purpose, but lawful self defense is neither unlawful nor is it evil.

One could argue that just like porn, they have no redeeming value.

OK, Ken. So how do you propose to have a society and a government with things like courts, bailiffs, and cops without handguns or rifles? Do you expect the cops to just get out their nightsticks?

[Ken]

You have been couching this discussion of pornography in terms of good and evil. And not "lawful" vs. "unlawful" Since ordinary pornography is clearly lawful and pornographers have the law on their side. Producing, selling, and consuming porn is perfectly lawful, more so than killing someone in self defense in fact.

Pornography is both evil and unlawful (regardless of what the Supreme Court says), much as chattels slavery is evil and unlawful.

As for killing? Killing is evil. It is right there in the 10 Commandments. And my version of the 10 Commandments has no self defense "loophole". Does yours?

It most certainly does. The book of the Bible that has the ten commandments lays out when it is lawful and not evil to kill in self defense - or just to kill to wipe out an entire city or people group because God told his people to do so.

I specifically mentioned handguns and assault weapons like the AR-15 which designed for one purpose only. To kill people.

First of all, that isn't their only purpose, but lawful self defense is neither unlawful nor is it evil.

One could argue that just like porn, they have no redeeming value.

OK, Ken. So how do you propose to have a society and a government with things like courts, bailiffs, and cops without handguns or rifles? Do you expect the cops to just get out their nightsticks?

I propose a society governed by laws. And despite your assertions to the contrary. Both firearms and porn are lawful in our society. And so I choose to focus my efforts elsewhere.

We also know what societies look like that focus obsessively on vice as you seem to desire. They look like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan. Where they actually have things like ministries of virtue and vice. And police forces dedicated to the same. Most of us aren’t interested in living in such places.

[JohnH]

I propose a society governed by laws.

I propose the same thing, and I would further propose that the Supreme Court stop shredding the laws that democratically-elected representatives pass, such as laws restricting pornography at the local level.

And despite your assertions to the contrary. Both firearms and porn are lawful in our society. And so I choose to focus my efforts elsewhere.

Pornography is no more lawful than slavery was.

We also know what societies look like that focus obsessively on vice as you seem to desire. They look like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan. Where they actually have things like ministries of virtue and vice. And police forces dedicated to the same. Most of us aren’t interested in living in such places.

I seem to recall living under one in 2020 when we had aggressive enforcement of the idea people should wear a random piece of cloth on their face, or enforcement to make sure anyone who wasn't vaccinated couldn't hold a job.

You wouldn't be interested in living in such a place, would you?

[Ken]

I propose a society governed by laws.

I propose the same thing, and I would further propose that the Supreme Court stop shredding the laws that democratically-elected representatives pass, such as laws restricting pornography at the local level.

And despite your assertions to the contrary. Both firearms and porn are lawful in our society. And so I choose to focus my efforts elsewhere.

Pornography is no more lawful than slavery was.

We also know what societies look like that focus obsessively on vice as you seem to desire. They look like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan. Where they actually have things like ministries of virtue and vice. And police forces dedicated to the same. Most of us aren’t interested in living in such places.

I seem to recall living under one in 2020 when we had aggressive enforcement of the idea people should wear a random piece of cloth on their face, or enforcement to make sure anyone who wasn't vaccinated couldn't hold a job.

You wouldn't be interested in living in such a place, would you?

Unfortunately for your analogy. The right of the government to pass laws to protect the health of the nation is right there in Article 1 of the constitution. The right to spread a deadly disease is not.

[JohnH]

Unfortunately for your analogy. The right of the government to pass laws to protect the health of the nation is right there in Article 1 of the constitution. The right to spread a deadly disease is not.

OK, so what you're saying is that actually we don't have any freedom of religion at all (the health department can suspend our religious liberties whenever they feel like), yet simultaneously pornography must be allowed because of some notion of "freedom of speech".

[Ken]

Unfortunately for your analogy. The right of the government to pass laws to protect the health of the nation is right there in Article 1 of the constitution. The right to spread a deadly disease is not.

OK, so what you're saying is that actually we don't have any freedom of religion at all (the health department can suspend our religious liberties whenever they feel like), yet simultaneously pornography must be allowed because of some notion of "freedom of speech".

No, that's not what I am saying.

And during the entire pandemic, I don't recall a single instance of someone being forcibly vaccinated against their will. The government certainly wasn't snatching people up off the street, tying them down, and vaccinating them against their will. If it is important enough to you not to get vaccinated, then don't get vaccinated. You have that freedom. Just like others have the freedom to choose not to be around you if you aren't going to do your part to help combat a deadly disease.

[JohnH]

And during the entire pandemic, I don't recall a single instance of someone being forcibly vaccinated against their will.

The federal government instituted a policy that you couldn't work if you weren't vaccinated, and that you couldn't go to school either.

A lot of people simply rebelled and didn't obey. I don't think that kind of thing is good, though.

You have that freedom. Just like others have the freedom to choose not to be around you if you aren't going to do your part to help combat a deadly disease.

The question was whether or not people who are unvaccinated could be allowed to have a job. It's ridiculous to claim you have a freedom to do something when doing so blocks you from being allowed to be employed.

[Szdfan]

I’m not disputing lawful self-defense. I’m pointing out that you allow nuance with firearms — distinguishing between use and misuse — but deny that same nuance with pornography.

Pray tell, what is "proper use" of pornography as opposed to misuse?

I’m not arguing that porn is proper or socially beneficial. I’m saying your personal revulsion—or disapproval of the kind of sex other people are having—isn’t a sound reason to criminalize it.

Legality doesn’t depend on moral approval. People can hold strong convictions without needing the law to impose those convictions on everyone else.