Mennonite Measles in Texas

[Ken]

Honestly... we do a serious disservice to society and our reputation to just do our normal life when we are sick.

If you are sick, stay home.

I'm not sure I agree with this anymore. We had a large, global experiment of what happens when people always "stay home" when they are sick, and in particular can see what happened in Australia where they were very strict about this.

Eventually, the diseases still spread and could not be avoided. Staying home is just postponing the inevitable.

If you have a measles outbreak, Chickenpox, so on and so forth... stay home if your children get sick, don't travel.

There isn't any evidence staying home actually stops the progression of a pandemic. It just makes the pandemic last longer.

I disagreed with the "panic" surrounding covid especially with the isolation for fear of getting sick, but if you got it, it made perfect sense to quarantine.

Did it? Other people are still going to get it. So what's the point in "staying home"?

In addition, in the real world, there are still jobs that need to be done, children taken care of, businesses to run, etc. regardless of if owners and moms and dads are sick. It's not really an option to just take 2-week vacations whenever I get the sniffles.

If only there was some simple and cheap way of preventing measles in the first place.

[JohnH]

If only there was some simple and cheap way of preventing measles in the first place.

Well, I'd like a way to do so that doesn't involve using ground up aborted baby parts. Would you be willing to advocate for that?

[Soloist]

I'm not sure I agree with this anymore. We had a large, global experiment of what happens when people always "stay home" when they are sick, and in particular can see what happened in Australia where they were very strict about this.

Eventually, the diseases still spread and could not be avoided. Staying home is just postponing the inevitable.

That is not true in the slightest. When the disease is run its course it’s no longer contagious. Someone who stays home and isolates, then becomes a dead end for the disease.
Some diseases you don’t even need to isolate for the full length of the disease. Pertussis for instance, has a lingering cough for a long time, but it’s not contagious except maybe the first few weeks.
There’s a substantial difference from a little cold and measles.

There isn't any evidence staying home actually stops the progression of a pandemic. It just makes the pandemic last longer.

There’s nothing I can say that would convince you otherwise so I’m not even going to engage this.

In addition, in the real world, there are still jobs that need to be done, children taken care of, businesses to run, etc. regardless of if owners and moms and dads are sick. It's not really an option to just take 2-week vacations whenever I get the sniffles.

Yeah and when I get sick I can’t work as my patient would either end in the hospital or dead from a little cold or worse.
Let’s just say it this way, I ask you about network stuff... You ask me about medically fragile children.
We both have our specific experience and expertise.

[JohnH]

That is not true in the slightest. When the disease is run its course it’s no longer contagious. Someone who stays home and isolates, then becomes a dead end for the disease.

It's not proven possible so far to actually eradicate contagious diseases like colds, flu, or COVID. Australia and NZ tried to do this. It did not work.

The net effect of people trying to do so just resulted in a much worse wave of flus, etc. after all this "isolating" during 2020. As you recall, the CDC claimed there was no flu season 2021/2021. The flu season the next year after that was a lot worse.

There isn't any evidence staying home actually stops the progression of a pandemic. It just makes the pandemic last longer.

There’s nothing I can say that would convince you otherwise so I’m not even going to engage this.

OK. Then after all the lockdowns/isolation during COVID.. why didn't colds and flus cease to exist?

Yeah and when I get sick I can’t work as my patient would either end in the hospital or dead from a little cold or worse.
Let’s just say it this way, I ask you about network stuff... You ask me about medically fragile children.
We both have our specific experience and expertise.

Yes, that makes sense for what you do. But you also depend on things that rely on other people showing up to work every day.. power, utilities like water. Those things rely on people keeping things going 24/7.

Likewise what often pays for those services for disabled people, etc is a robust economy with a strong tax base. That means having businesses that stay in business. In COVID we learned what happens when we try "lockdowns" and "isolation". We had to print lots of money and the economy got destroyed.

My business would not survive if I just took a 2 week vacation everytime I was sick and most other people I know, well, theirs wouldn't either. There is a reason jobs typically only give a week or so of sick time. Some give none.

[Soloist]

It's not proven possible so far to actually eradicate contagious diseases like colds, flu, or COVID. Australia and NZ tried to do this. It did not work.

The net effect of people trying to do so just resulted in a much worse wave of flus, etc. after all this "isolating" during 2020. As you recall, the CDC claimed there was no flu season 2021/2021. The flu season the next year after that was a lot worse.

There isn't any evidence staying home actually stops the progression of a pandemic. It just makes the pandemic last longer.

There’s nothing I can say that would convince you otherwise so I’m not even going to engage this.

OK. Then after all the lockdowns/isolation during COVID.. why didn't colds and flus cease to exist?

You know this sort of conversation has gone around in circles over Mennonet and multiple other places online for the past few years now.
If people who study infectious diseases aren’t going to convince you, then none of my knowledge is going to have any weight in this conversation with you anyway.

Yes, that makes sense for what you do. But you also depend on things that rely on other people showing up to work every day.. power, utilities like water. Those things rely on people keeping things going 24/7.

Likewise what often pays for those services for disabled people, etc is a robust economy with a strong tax base. That means having businesses that stay in business. In COVID we learned what happens when we try "lockdowns" and "isolation". We had to print lots of money and the economy got destroyed.

My business would not survive if I just took a 2 week vacation everytime I was sick and most other people I know, well, theirs wouldn't either. There is a reason jobs typically only give a week or so of sick time. Some give none.

There is a difference between a lockdown and isolating when you’re sick. Can you understand the difference?
When a nurse calls out sick another nurse takes their place. That’s how it’s supposed to work. we have problems, but it’s not because of sickle leave policies.

If we are so focused on making money… that we don’t have back ups… fine, but I don’t want my grocery store clerk vomiting on my groceries.
You can have that clerk.

[ken_sylvania]

My business would not survive if I just took a 2 week vacation everytime I was sick and most other people I know, well, theirs wouldn't either. There is a reason jobs typically only give a week or so of sick time. Some give none.

If your business would not survive you staying home during the time you are most contagious you ought to just make some adjustments. Just learn to adapt. Other businesses can operate without having people coughing and sneezing all over their customers. If your business can't adapt maybe you should just close it down.

[JohnH]

My business would not survive if I just took a 2 week vacation everytime I was sick and most other people I know, well, theirs wouldn't either. There is a reason jobs typically only give a week or so of sick time. Some give none.

If your business would not survive you staying home during the time you are most contagious you ought to just make some adjustments. Just learn to adapt. Other businesses can operate without having people coughing and sneezing all over their customers. If your business can't adapt maybe you should just close it down.

A small business isn't going to survive its owners or key personnel regularly being absent unexpectedly for 2 weeks. (Perhaps Soloist expected something different in terms of "isolation", but that's what the current public health guidance is.) The average person has 2-3 colds per year.

I've never been in a job which offered 6 weeks of sick time, nor have I worked somewhere where key management was absent 6 weeks of the year for sick time like that. It just doesn't happen. Maybe missing a day or two here when it's the worst, and being out for a week with the flu. But not this level of "isolation".

The idea we can control contagious disease is frankly ridiculous. When a cold is going around, everyone is going to get it.

[ken_sylvania]

My business would not survive if I just took a 2 week vacation everytime I was sick and most other people I know, well, theirs wouldn't either. There is a reason jobs typically only give a week or so of sick time. Some give none.

If your business would not survive you staying home during the time you are most contagious you ought to just make some adjustments. Just learn to adapt. Other businesses can operate without having people coughing and sneezing all over their customers. If your business can't adapt maybe you should just close it down.

A small business isn't going to survive its owners or key personnel regularly being absent unexpectedly for 2 weeks. (Perhaps Soloist expected something different in terms of "isolation", but that's what the current public health guidance is.) The average person has 2-3 colds per year.

I've never been in a job which offered 6 weeks of sick time, nor have I worked somewhere where key management was absent 6 weeks of the year for sick time like that. It just doesn't happen. Maybe missing a day or two here when it's the worst, and being out for a week with the flu. But not this level of "isolation".

The idea we can control contagious disease is frankly ridiculous. When a cold is going around, everyone is going to get it.

Ya know JohnH, I really think you ought to work on telling the truth for a change.

[Soloist]

I think I’ll just simply say that it is possible to have ethics avoid vaccines you believe are immoral and still take healthy appropriate precautions when you are sick or sickness is around.
If my children had measles, they would be confined for the recommended amount of time and I would not work for that time either unless I could guarantee that I would not bring it to work.
If I heard of measles in the school or in our community my children would not go to school and until measles was no longer the threat.

And if everyone did the same for a few days, and actually appropriately communicated the outbreak to the response teams… we would contain an outbreak pretty fast.

[Ken]

The idea we can control contagious disease is frankly ridiculous. When a cold is going around, everyone is going to get it.

The last time I had a bad cold or the flu was March 2020 right before the first COVID lockdowns. Since then, nothing. In fact, the flu all but disappeared during the first year of COVID.

And the idea that we CAN'T control contagious diseases is ridiculous. We have controlled and eliminated many diseases that used to plague our society: Polio, smallpox, yellow fever, rubella, malaria, diphtheria, etc. And we are making progress on others like tuberculosis and HIV.