Mennonite Measles in Texas

[Soloist]

Try as you will, you are not going to make this sound reasonable or sensible.

Are not 2 dead children and one dead adult enough?

using fetal skin to study MRSA doesn't sound reasonable either.

Where are they getting the skin? I am not happy at this kind of research, but it is not relevant to the issue at hand, and is the usual “whataboutism.”

actually, I would say its very relevant to an objection to vaccines with fetal cells when a "are not 2 dead children" sort of emotional appeal is made. If we could get an ethical vaccine, we would. The point of attacking a religious stance (John's) as neglect and then to dismiss this as whataboutism is natural as you don't object to benefiting from abortion. The point though to argue over if its neglect or not is pointless.
Besides, I wasn't saying that 2 proven deaths from measles wasn't enough, but as long as the government and Pharm companies refuse to provide options, we will continue to have our stance.
To be clear, even if that was an option, I'd still object to everything else its used for too. This project could have been done with cord blood or as the study actually did as well, adult donated skin. Both would be totally ethical and not sourced from death.

The fetal tissue sourcing is below

De-identified human fetal tissues at the gestational age of 18 to 20 weeks were obtained from medically or elective indicated termination of pregnancy through Magee-Womens Hospital of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC), with the University of Pittsburgh, Health Sciences Tissue Bank. Written informed consent of the maternal donors was obtained in all cases, under a protocol reviewed and approved by the Institutional Review Board (IRB) of the University of Pittsburgh; approved guidelines and federal/state regulations were adhered to for all procedures. The use of de-identified human fetal tissues to construct humanized rodents was reviewed and approved by the University of Pittsburgh IRB Office. The use of de-identified human fetal tissues did not constitute human subjects research as defined under federal regulations [45 CFR 46.102(d or f) and 21 CFR 56.102(c), (e), and (l)]. The use of human fetal liver-derived hematopoietic stem cells was reviewed and approved by the Human Stem Cell Research Oversight (hSCRO) at the University of Pittsburgh. The use of a biological agent (CA-MRSA), recombinant DNA, and transgenic animals were reviewed and approved by the Institutional Biosafety Committee (IBC) at the University of Pittsburgh. All animal studies/experimental protocols were reviewed and approved by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee at the University of Pittsburgh and were conducted following approved guidelines, which adheres to the NIH guidelines for housing and care of laboratory animals.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71548-z#Ack1

Its a package deal, as long as research like this continues, the permissibility of fetal cell derived vaccines was a bridge crossed years before my time and this newer (relatively speaking) was crossed with little to no objection. This is the way our country works now.
As for the measles outbreak... none of these people are claiming religious objections that have publicly spoken up.

The second death with these small numbers actually is statistically significant although not worth me bothering to update my calculations. Maybe after another month of spread we will have more data to work with.
What would be interesting to me is to know the poor CDC worker's data on tracing these "old colony groups"

[Judas Maccabeus]

using fetal skin to study MRSA doesn't sound reasonable either.

Where are they getting the skin? I am not happy at this kind of research, but it is not relevant to the issue at hand, and is the usual “whataboutism.”

actually, I would say its very relevant to an objection to vaccines with fetal cells when a "are not 2 dead children" sort of emotional appeal is made. If we could get an ethical vaccine, we would. The point of attacking a religious stance (John's) as neglect and then to dismiss this as whataboutism is natural as you don't object to benefiting from abortion. The point though to argue over if its neglect or not is pointless.
Besides, I wasn't saying that 2 proven deaths from measles wasn't enough, but as long as the government and Pharm companies refuse to provide options, we will continue to have our stance.
To be clear, even if that was an option, I'd still object to everything else its used for too. This project could have been done with cord blood or as the study actually did as well, adult donated skin. Both would be totally ethical and not sourced from death.

The fetal tissue sourcing is below

De-identified human fetal tissues at the gestational age of 18 to 20 weeks were obtained from medically or elective indicated termination of pregnancy through Magee-Womens Hospital of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC), with the University of Pittsburgh, Health Sciences Tissue Bank. Written informed consent of the maternal donors was obtained in all cases, under a protocol reviewed and approved by the Institutional Review Board (IRB) of the University of Pittsburgh; approved guidelines and federal/state regulations were adhered to for all procedures. The use of de-identified human fetal tissues to construct humanized rodents was reviewed and approved by the University of Pittsburgh IRB Office. The use of de-identified human fetal tissues did not constitute human subjects research as defined under federal regulations [45 CFR 46.102(d or f) and 21 CFR 56.102(c), (e), and (l)]. The use of human fetal liver-derived hematopoietic stem cells was reviewed and approved by the Human Stem Cell Research Oversight (hSCRO) at the University of Pittsburgh. The use of a biological agent (CA-MRSA), recombinant DNA, and transgenic animals were reviewed and approved by the Institutional Biosafety Committee (IBC) at the University of Pittsburgh. All animal studies/experimental protocols were reviewed and approved by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee at the University of Pittsburgh and were conducted following approved guidelines, which adheres to the NIH guidelines for housing and care of laboratory animals.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71548-z#Ack1

Its a package deal, as long as research like this continues, the permissibility of fetal cell derived vaccines was a bridge crossed years before my time and this newer (relatively speaking) was crossed with little to no objection. This is the way our country works now.
As for the measles outbreak... none of these people are claiming religious objections that have publicly spoken up.

The second death with these small numbers actually is statistically significant although not worth me bothering to update my calculations. Maybe after another month of spread we will have more data to work with.
What would be interesting to me is to know the poor CDC worker's data on tracing these "old colony groups"

Would the bridge never been crossed. On the problem with incrementalism, I have no difference with you. I really thought the "agreement" would have held.

My back-of-envelope calculations say that less than half of cases are being reported. Could they make a trivalent vaccine based on the "ethical" measles vaccine?

[JohnH]

Would the bridge never been crossed. On the problem with incrementalism, I have no difference with you. I really thought the "agreement" would have held.

Well, the "agreement" hasn't been held, and fetal stem cells are starting to infect more and more of medicine. If this continues unabated, there won't be much of modern medicine left to partake in without accepting the fact you're making your own good health dependent on murdering unborn babies. That's not a good position for the Christian to be in.

My back-of-envelope calculations say that less than half of cases are being reported. Could they make a trivalent vaccine based on the "ethical" measles vaccine?

Why does it need to be trivalent? Measles vaccines predate the fetal stem cell era. Just start making the normal vaccines again. This seems like a very reasonable thing to ask - yet it is impossible to get them. The only thing a person like myself can do is decline nearly all vaccines. And yes, it does very much feel like accepting using fetal stem cells is something that is "pushed" on us.

(If you want people to take mumps and rubella vaccines, then make those separately.)

[Judas Maccabeus]

Why does it need to be trivalent? Measles vaccines predate the fetal stem cell era.

Do you understand this at all?

The “stem cell” issue and the fact that three different vaccines were formulated into one shot have nothing to do with each other. It would surely be possible to create a trivalent vaccine that Soloist would consider “ethical “ . What is standing in the way is money. It would require a company to formulate such a vaccine, than test it per FDA regulations. So far, there is no demand that would make a vaccine maker spend the millions necessary.

Why trivalent vaccines? Easy, reduces the number of times you have to give a child an injection. Do you want to have us stick your child more times. DPT is a trivalent vaccine as well. Let’s see, six sticks instead of two. You up for that?

If my memory holds polio is a trivalent vac as well. Last flu shot I got was quadrivalent.

[JohnH]

Do you understand this at all?

Yes, I do. Can we discourse with each other with respect and assume good faith of each other?

The “stem cell” issue and the fact that three different vaccines were formulated into one shot have nothing to do with each other.

I am aware of that.

It would surely be possible to create a trivalent vaccine that Soloist would consider “ethical “ .

It probably is possible. However, an ethical measles vaccine already exists; Japan never adopted trivalent vaccines (due to quite real concerns they had with effectiveness and safety) and they offer monovalent vaccines. (I believe a bivalent vaccine exists for one of the combos.)

What is standing in the way is money. It would require a company to formulate such a vaccine, than test it per FDA regulations. So far, there is no demand that would make a vaccine maker spend the millions necessary.

No, it isn't. The vaccine is already available in Japan now. It is obviously not that hard to do. And we used to have measles vaccines in America that weren't made with stem cells. It would not take "millions". The research and testing has already been done.

Why trivalent vaccines? Easy, reduces the number of times you have to give a child an injection. Do you want to have us stick your child more times. DPT is a trivalent vaccine as well. Let’s see, six sticks instead of two. You up for that?

Well, except countries that take vaccine safety seriously found problems with them, like I pointed out above. And perhaps not everyone would choose to get all of them. Some people might choose to just get the measles vaccine instead of the other ones.

Is that a problem? I think it's good to give people choices instead of trying to force things on them.

[Soloist]

Would the bridge never been crossed. On the problem with incrementalism, I have no difference with you. I really thought the "agreement" would have held.

My back-of-envelope calculations say that less than half of cases are being reported. Could they make a trivalent vaccine based on the "ethical" measles vaccine?

yeah and it was never a formalized agreement anyway more of a gentlemen's agreement. At the time they might very well have believed it.

50% of cases unreported, I would say that is likely accurate if not more. After that community "active" cases dies down I would hazard a guess the outbreak will die too.

So the vaccine issues,


We once had decided on getting the combo vaccine, DTAP-IPV Kinrix which was produced on monkey/calf cells and tested on guinea pigs. We got the shot and after looking at the record determined they actually gave the Quadracel which was produced on MRC-5 cells.
We stopped getting it there and (that one was free) and moved to a small clinic to get one which they only had the TD and the Polio as two separate vaccines so we did that instead.

As for MMR...

Wistar
RA 27/3 strain of live attenuated rubella virus propagated in MRC-5 human diploid cells

This is the problem. So to fix it would take clinical trials at the very least. Importing Japan's version (which I think is also a trivalent actually) would also end up with the same problem of needing "American" trials likely. Otherwise some quack would claim it wasn't safe too. They likely will anyway regardless of what is done.

The future for vaccines is combo's and as we combined vaccines to the "greater" 1 shot for 4+ I lose flexibility to address high risk. The primary one I'd be most concerned about would be Tetanus followed by Polio and then Measles. I can get 2... if the Quadracel replaced the DT for example (and a few others) I could lose the other two as well.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Accidental duplicate

[Judas Maccabeus]

Would the bridge never been crossed. On the problem with incrementalism, I have no difference with you. I really thought the "agreement" would have held.

My back-of-envelope calculations say that less than half of cases are being reported. Could they make a trivalent vaccine based on the "ethical" measles vaccine?

yeah and it was never a formalized agreement anyway more of a gentlemen's agreement. At the time they might very well have believed it.

50% of cases unreported, I would say that is likely accurate if not more. After that community "active" cases dies down I would hazard a guess the outbreak will die too.

So the vaccine issues,


We once had decided on getting the combo vaccine, DTAP-IPV Kinrix which was produced on monkey/calf cells and tested on guinea pigs. We got the shot and after looking at the record determined they actually gave the Quadracel which was produced on MRC-5 cells.
We stopped getting it there and (that one was free) and moved to a small clinic to get one which they only had the TD and the Polio as two separate vaccines so we did that instead.

As for MMR...

Wistar
RA 27/3 strain of live attenuated rubella virus propagated in MRC-5 human diploid cells

This is the problem. So to fix it would take clinical trials at the very least. Importing Japan's version (which I think is also a trivalent actually) would also end up with the same problem of needing "American" trials likely. Otherwise some quack would claim it wasn't safe too. They likely will anyway regardless of what is done.

The future for vaccines is combo's and as we combined vaccines to the "greater" 1 shot for 4+ I lose flexibility to address high risk. The primary one I'd be most concerned about would be Tetanus followed by Polio and then Measles. I can get 2... if the Quadracel replaced the DT for example (and a few others) I could lose the other two as well.

We had problems of a different sort 15 years ago. Tc99m MAA used to have three different manufacturers. When it dwindled down to one, the remaining one multiplied the price X5, saying they needed “new investment in facilities.” This has a patent date of like 1975, and it is quite inexpensive to make. Well, to make a long story short, the president of the society of nuclear medicine began a campaign to bring the Japanese product, made by Fujisawa, to the United States. He was almost literally going to “pass the hat“ at the annual meeting estimate of cost to get this product approved in the United States was about $1 million. Now the Fujisawa product is perfectly fine, and would meet US approval with only limited clinical trials. I guess the company that was making it thought he was serious because they cut the price almost down to the original level.

Maybe this could be a prototype for efforts to bring about non-fetal cell vaccines. I would love to see them personally. In actuality, I think our underlying beliefs are closer than you may think, the only difference being the calculus of what to do with the current vaccines.

[JohnH]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea I need to give these vaccines to my 6 month old:

RSV, Hep B, rotavirus, TDAP, Hib, pneumococcal, polio, COVID, MMR, chickenpox, Hep A, meningitis (different one than Hib).

16 vaccines seems like a bit many. And they keep adding more and more. Of course, if I try to Google any information on them, I just get sheets saying "Vaccines are safe and effective" over and over.

[Ken]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea I need to give these vaccines to my 6 month old:

RSV, Hep B, rotavirus, TDAP, Hib, pneumococcal, polio, COVID, MMR, chickenpox, Hep A, meningitis (different one than Hib).

16 vaccines seems like a bit many. And they keep adding more and more. Of course, if I try to Google any information on them, I just get sheets saying "Vaccines are safe and effective" over and over.

Is your 6 month old infant immune from deadly diseases?

Do you know what the infant death rate was in this country before the advent of vaccines?