Mennonite Measles in Texas

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by Ken »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:06 pm There is no “standard of care” that a “reasonable” parent must vaccinate their children.
Sure there is. Since you say you use the Cleveland Clinic let's see what they say about the standard of care with respect to childhood vaccinations. Here it is: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/a ... n-schedule
The childhood vaccine schedule is a list of all the vaccines your child needs as they grow and develop, and the exact ages for when they should happen. Experts choose the times based on when each vaccine will best protect your child. Your pediatrician will tell you if your child needs any additional vaccines or doses to meet their health needs.

What is the childhood vaccine schedule?

The childhood vaccine schedule (also called an immunization schedule) is a list of vaccines your child should have at specific ages. Infectious disease experts recommend your child gets these vaccines to protect them from serious — potentially life-threatening — diseases and their complications.

You might be wondering how important it is for your child to follow the schedule of immunizations. It’s very important because the timing of each vaccine affects how well it can protect your child. Experts develop and update this schedule based on the latest science. They choose vaccination ages according to:
  • When your child’s immune system will best respond to a specific vaccine (by making antibodies to develop enough protection).
  • When your child faces the greatest risk of catching the disease in question.
Your child will get their vaccines at routine well-check visits. Following the well-check schedule means your child will stay on track with vaccines. But it’s still helpful to know which vaccines your child needs and at what ages.
That is the actual standard of care in this country that reasonable people follow.
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JohnH
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by JohnH »

That’s nice. That has nothing to do with “negligence” on the part of a parent.

Actual criminal neglect would be not feeding a child at all, or leaving them in a hot, locked car.

There is absolutely no requirement to vaccinate your children, no standard that not doing so is neglect, and no tort for not doing so either.
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Ken
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by Ken »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:34 pm That’s nice. That has nothing to do with “negligence” on the part of a parent.

Actual criminal neglect would be not feeding a child at all, or leaving them in a hot, locked car.

There is absolutely no requirement to vaccinate your children, no standard that not doing so is neglect, and no tort for not doing so either.
Protest all you want. But failing to vaccinate your children meets the actual definition of negligence that you, yourself, posted upstream. It isn't against the law. That is a completely separate issue. But it does meet the very definition of negligence that you, yourself posted.

Let's roll the tape:
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 1:49 pm From Wiktionary:
. . .
3. (law, uncountable) The breach of a duty of care: the failure to exercise a standard of care that a reasonable person would have in a similar situation.
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JohnH
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by JohnH »

Ken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:39 pm
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:34 pm That’s nice. That has nothing to do with “negligence” on the part of a parent.

Actual criminal neglect would be not feeding a child at all, or leaving them in a hot, locked car.

There is absolutely no requirement to vaccinate your children, no standard that not doing so is neglect, and no tort for not doing so either.
Protest all you want. But failing to vaccinate your children meets the actual definition of negligence that you, yourself, posted upstream. It isn't against the law. That is a completely separate issue. But it does meet the very definition of negligence that you, yourself posted.

Let's roll the tape:
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 1:49 pm From Wiktionary:
. . .
3. (law, uncountable) The breach of a duty of care: the failure to exercise a standard of care that a reasonable person would have in a similar situation.
No, it doesn’t. There is no “duty of care” for parents to vaccinate children.

Both definitions I posted were legal definitions. “Negligence” doesn’t have a non-legal definition, at least not in sources I checked.
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Ken
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by Ken »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:43 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:39 pm
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:34 pm That’s nice. That has nothing to do with “negligence” on the part of a parent.

Actual criminal neglect would be not feeding a child at all, or leaving them in a hot, locked car.

There is absolutely no requirement to vaccinate your children, no standard that not doing so is neglect, and no tort for not doing so either.
Protest all you want. But failing to vaccinate your children meets the actual definition of negligence that you, yourself, posted upstream. It isn't against the law. That is a completely separate issue. But it does meet the very definition of negligence that you, yourself posted.

Let's roll the tape:
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 1:49 pm From Wiktionary:
. . .
3. (law, uncountable) The breach of a duty of care: the failure to exercise a standard of care that a reasonable person would have in a similar situation.
No, it doesn’t. There is no “duty of care” for parents to vaccinate children.

Both definitions I posted were legal definitions. “Negligence” doesn’t have a non-legal definition, at least not in sources I checked.
Again there is confusion here. Standard of care and "duty of care" are two completely separate things.

"Duty of care" refers to WHO has the responsibility or duty. For example, I do not have a duty to care for your children. I have never met them we have no connection whatsoever. The "duty of care" in this case is yours and your wife's. Likewise, you have no duty to care for my children, just your own.

"Standard of care" refers to what that care should entail.
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JohnH
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by JohnH »

There is no “standard of care” for parents to vaccinate their children, either.
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Ken
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by Ken »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:48 pm There is no “standard of care” for parents to vaccinate their children, either.
Again. Confusion here with the terms.

The standard of care for communicable childhood diseases is vaccination according to the schedule set out by the Cleveland Clinic above (and every other public health agency in this country). That is the standard of care that reasonable people follow. Is it mandatory? That depends on the jurisdiction. Mostly it is not mandatory. But it is the standard of care, nonetheless.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:48 pm There is no “standard of care” for parents to vaccinate their children, either.
Wrong. Per my now-retired public health nurse wife, who is sitting next to me now, it is a standard of care to strongly encourage parents to vaccinate children. "Standards of care" apply to health care practitioners, not the general public. So one cannot force you to do this, in most cases.
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Ken
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by Ken »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 4:01 pm
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:48 pm There is no “standard of care” for parents to vaccinate their children, either.
Wrong. Per my now-retired public health nurse wife, who is sitting next to me now, it is a standard of care to strongly encourage parents to vaccinate children. "Standards of care" apply to health care practitioners, not the general public. So one cannot force you to do this, in most cases.
When it comes to negligence, they apply to anyone who has a "duty of care." Which in this instance is both the health care professionals and the parents. But not some random person on the street with no connection to the child.

As a science teacher I have a duty of care over the children in my classroom. I have a duty to keep them safe and educate them. The standards in this instance are things like making sure hazardous chemicals are properly stored and locked away, and making sure that the safety equipment in the classroom is present and operational. If I don't do those things I would be negligent. That same duty doesn't attach to parents who are not present in my classroom. At the same time, I do not, however, have a duty to make sure the children in classroom are vaccinated or protected from deadly diseases. That duty falls elsewhere.
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JohnH
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Re: Mennonite Measles in Texas

Post by JohnH »

Ken wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 4:11 pm When it comes to negligence, they apply to anyone who has a "duty of care." Which in this instance is both the health care professionals and the parents. But not some random person on the street with no connection to the child.

As a science teacher I have a duty of care over the children in my classroom. I have a duty to keep them safe and educate them. The standards in this instance are things like making sure hazardous chemicals are properly stored and locked away, and making sure that the safety equipment in the classroom is present and operational. If I don't do those things I would be negligent. That same duty doesn't attach to parents who are not present in my classroom. At the same time, I do not, however, have a duty to make sure the children in classroom are vaccinated or protected from deadly diseases. That duty falls elsewhere.
There is no standard of care for parents to practice medicine on their children, and in fact, you aren't supposed to practice medicine with your own relatives. The only duty parents have to children would be to seek the advice of a medical professional if they are not sure what to do when their child seems to have a serious illness, injury, and so forth.

There is no standard of care for parents to arrange to have their children vaccinated.
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