Mennonite Measles in Texas

[JohnH]

Just so you know, thalidomide was never licensed in the United States due to the effort of a courageous government scientist who refused to license it before the manufacturer provided the requisite safety information. What got loose in the US did so because it was diverted from a clinical trial. It should not have been. She resisted drug company pressure, and refused to sign it off.

Yes - so they dumped the drug on women in places like Germany where it hadn't been pulled off the market yet.

for the record, I have difficulty being in the room with a drug rep. When I was working, my policy was I do not talk to them.

Those are the salesmen at the front lines of Big Pharma, who make record profits off of vaccines. The largest profit Pfizer ever recorded in their 175 years of existence was when they pushed the COVID vaccine.

It's about profits, not healing.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Yes - so they dumped the drug on women in places like Germany where it hadn't been pulled off the market yet.

Please get your facts straight before commenting. It was INVENTED in Germany, not the United States, so it was never "dumped" in Germany. The problems, that resulted from inadaquate testing were first noted in Europe.

This is the third time I have noted you have posted things that are inconsistent with the facts. Is this becoming of one who makes claims to be a Mennonite?

[Judas Maccabeus]

You have been misinformed. Such a combination does not exist, is not licensed. Wife who is a public health nurse never heard of such a thing either.

I was quite surprised as well to hear such a combination existed.

Whoever is giving you this stuff is off the wall, or as we say here, talking out the side of their face.

I don't think the Cleveland Clinic is off the wall.

It is possible I was hallucinating the entire appointment, but that seems unlikely.

You seem to have difficulty getting your facts correct. All vaccines and drugs used in the United States have a product information sheet. These are readily available. None exists for the combination you have suggested. So either Cleveland Clinic is dispensing drugs that are not licensed, you are hallucinating, or you are distorting the truth.

The former is nearly impossible with current dispensing systems. You DO know that in a major facility each dispensing unit is barcoded, and the lot# also barcoded into the system. Every drug is tracked all the way back to the point of manufacture.

What you have made here is a serious accusation. You have alleged malpractice. You have alleged drug adulteration, which is a federal crime. So, are you accusing this institution of violating the law?

So, which is it? Perhaps you should be better at developing plausible falsehoods because these are implausible.

[JohnH]

Please get your facts straight before commenting. It was INVENTED in Germany, not the United States, so it was never "dumped" in Germany. The problems, that resulted from inadaquate testing were first noted in Europe.

Huh? It got dumped on women in Germany. Despite being pulled off the market in the U.S. and knowing it was dangerous, they kept on getting women in Europe to take it. I guess you and I have differing definitions of "dumped".

I think you need to stop presuming that the person you are talking to is ignorant.

This is the third time I have noted you have posted things that are inconsistent with the facts. Is this becoming of one who makes claims to be a Mennonite?

People can have different opinions. There is no one set of "facts" that is entirely agreed on. I can think most vaccines are harmful. You can think they are good. Neither of us can claim the other is "lying".

[JohnH]

You seem to have difficulty getting your facts correct. All vaccines and drugs used in the United States have a product information sheet.

Well, sort of. When they are issued under an EUA, a lot of that gets skipped.

These are readily available. None exists for the combination you have suggested. So either Cleveland Clinic is dispensing drugs that are not licensed, you are hallucinating, or you are distorting the truth.

I was as surprised as you are (and obviously was not going to ask questions about another patient), so I went and asked an actual medical provider, you know, a "doctor", which as far as I know neither you nor I are. He informed me there are formulations of combinations of vaccines that can be prepared sort of like a compounding pharmacy, and lots of primary-care offices stock these now. They do not have to go through any kind of normal vaccine approval process.

What you have made here is a serious accusation. You have alleged malpractice. You have alleged drug adulteration, which is a federal crime. So, are you accusing this institution of violating the law?

I have done no such thing. I am going to assume what they were dispensing was entirely legal. I never said it was illegal. I just said it was surprising.

So, which is it? Perhaps you should be better at developing plausible falsehoods because these are implausible.

J M, I think you might be a little out of touch with how things are done these days. I was quite surprised to learn of all of these novel combo-vaccines, but they do now exist. Most notably, when combining them they can change the formulation of adjuvants without repeating testing, but that's true of all vaccines - fiddling with the adjuvant formula is outside of the testing. The testing is just done on the non-adjuvant part.

If you want to promote vaccines, it would be good to be up to date with how things are actually being done now. I would have more confidence in them if they weren't exempt from the things that other pharmaceuticals are. And I would be more confident if their defenders didn't seem to just live with their head in the sand.

Administering Gardisil and a flu shot at the same time is not a novel or outlandish idea; it should not be surprising that a combination has been cooked up so it can be given in a single shot.

[Ken]

You seem to have difficulty getting your facts correct. All vaccines and drugs used in the United States have a product information sheet.

Well, sort of. When they are issued under an EUA, a lot of that gets skipped.

No, actually it doesn't. The only thing that gets cut back under a EUA is some of the long-term tracking and some of the detailed federal inspections of manufacturing facilities and manufacturing processes. Because those things would slow down the faster emergency approval of a medication during a public health crisis. When the manufacturer goes to get permanent approval those things are done.

But no clinical trials are shortened or eliminated under an EUA. All the vaccines went through full Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 trials. And things like product information sheets are most certainly not eliminated or skipped.

[Ken]

Administering Gardisil and a flu shot at the same time is not a novel or outlandish idea; it should not be surprising that a combination has been cooked up so it can be given in a single shot.

Since you are citing the Cleveland Clinic, let's see what they actually say about whether clinicians can mix vaccines into a single syringe at will: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how- ... et-at-once

Can you get multiple vaccines at once?

The short answer is yes. “It’s been shown both in studies and in general use that getting more than one vaccine in a day is completely safe,” says Dr. Sullivan.

Getting more than one vaccine doesn’t mean mixing all the vaccines in a single syringe and getting only one shot, though. It means you can safely get multiple, separate vaccines during one appointment.

Mixing or combining vaccines into one shot is only OK for certain formulations approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). One approved combo is HepA-HepB — a single vaccination that guards adults against both hepatitis A and hepatitis B.

While it’s safe, there are still some pros and cons to weigh about getting multiple, separate shots in one visit. Let’s take a look.

Oh, I guess not.

The link you provided about flu and COVID shots was not about combining two vaccines into a single syringe. It was about giving two separate shots during the same office visit. Which is exactly what they do. Last fall I went into my clinic for both a COVID booster and a flu shot. I got both but they were administered with separate syringes. I even asked the nurse why they couldn't combine them and just poke me once. And she said that wasn't allowed. But I guess you wouldn't know that since you don't believe in vaccines.

And from the actual FDA guidelines to clinicians for administering vaccines: https://www.immunize.org/ask-experts/to ... -vaccines/

Administering Vaccines General Issues

When patients need multiple vaccines (such as influenza and pneumococcal), can we just combine them in the same syringe?

Absolutely not. No vaccines should ever be mixed in the same syringe unless the combination has been specifically approved by the FDA.

[JohnH]

Let’s go over it again.

#1. The patient wanted the HPV vaccine.

#2. The patient didn’t care about a flu shot.

#3. The nurse had to consult with the doctor concerning whether they could administer the combination vaccine or else should wait to order the individual vaccine.

#4. The doctor said it’s OK provided she hasn’t already had a flu shot, after taking a consult to ask somebody else.

#5. The nurse verified it was OK and they got the mystery vial from the freezer.

Who knows though. I might have been hallucinating. Perhaps you are hallucinating this conversation.

[Ken]

We aren't the ones hallucinating here.

There is no combination GARDASIL/Flu vaccine approved by the FDA or manufactured in the US. Such a combination doesn't exist.

And there are only two vaccine combinations that are allowed to be mixed and administered together at the clinical level. GARDASIL/Flu isn't one of those combinations either. From the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/imz-be ... ogics.html

Combination vaccines and FDA licensure

Only combination vaccines licensed by FDA should be used. Vaccination providers should not combine separate vaccines into the same syringe to administer together unless mixing is indicated for the patient’s age and is explicitly specified on the FDA-approved product label inserts. Only 2 combination vaccines, (DTaP-IPV/Hib vaccine, marketed as Pentacel, and Hib-MenCY, marketed as MenHibrix) contain separate antigen components for which FDA approves mixing by the user. The safety, immunogenicity, and effectiveness of unlicensed combinations are unknown.

You are claiming that the Cleveland Clinic is illegally combining and administering vaccine combinations into "mystery vials" that are not approved by the FDA? How would they even do that? Most vaccine vials don't have removable tops, they have a seal that you puncture with a syringe to draw out vaccine. You think nurses are sitting around in the back room with graduated cylinders or volumetric pipettes breaking open sealed vials and measuring out and mixing up their own off-the-books vaccine cocktails like they are in a chemistry class?

Sure....

[Judas Maccabeus]

For the record, this is the product information (commonly called the insert) for the covid 19 vaccine:

https://www.fda.gov/media/151707/download?attachment

One of these exists for every drug-licensed in the United States.

Fun fact: There used to be a compendium of all of these in a bound volume called "The Physician's Desk Reference." They were red. A separate, shorter one was issued for all diagnostic products; one of those lived on my desk back in the day.......