Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?

[Ken]

I realize I've said this a number of times in previous discussions like this but I believe the statements by Jesus you are referring to were, for the most part, made about and to the religious Jewish leaders such as the Scribes and Pharisees. If this is true, I believe we have an example to follow as it relates to calling out religious leaders today who do not practice the things Jesus taught and who lead others to build their lives on faulty foundations.

There wasn't any sense of separation of church and state in ancient Judaism. So Jewish leaders would have been among the community elders in most villages engaged in interpreting the law, administering justice, governing village affairs, and so forth.

That is not to say that there weren't religious leaders deserving of being called out for various improprieties. Of course there were. But it doesn't mean there was any kind of prohibition on the religious faithful engaging in local civic duties and governance.

[GaryK]

I realize I've said this a number of times in previous discussions like this but I believe the statements by Jesus you are referring to were, for the most part, made about and to the religious Jewish leaders such as the Scribes and Pharisees. If this is true, I believe we have an example to follow as it relates to calling out religious leaders today who do not practice the things Jesus taught and who lead others to build their lives on faulty foundations.

There wasn't any sense of separation of church and state in ancient Judaism. So Jewish leaders would have been among the community elders in most villages engaged in interpreting the law, administering justice, governing village affairs, and so forth.

That is not to say that there weren't religious leaders deserving of being called out for various improprieties. Of course there were. But it doesn't mean there was any kind of prohibition on the religious faithful engaging in local civic duties and governance.

There was certainly a separation between Judaism and and the Gentile world and the separation was largely religious. And Judaism was longing for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the earthly government of Rome they found themselves under.

[JohnH]

There wasn't any sense of separation of church and state in ancient Judaism. So Jewish leaders would have been among the community elders in most villages engaged in interpreting the law, administering justice, governing village affairs, and so forth.

Believe it or not, Jesus called people to something that went beyond ancient Judaism (properly called "second-temple Judaism").

That is not to say that there weren't religious leaders deserving of being called out for various improprieties. Of course there were. But it doesn't mean there was any kind of prohibition on the religious faithful engaging in local civic duties and governance.

As I recall, Jesus ran afoul of the "community elders" of his time, who decided petition to have him crucified. Personally I would prefer to see religious leaders not calling to have people crucified.

[ohio jones]

There wasn't any sense of separation of church and state in ancient Judaism. So Jewish leaders would have been among the community elders in most villages engaged in interpreting the law, administering justice, governing village affairs, and so forth.

That is not to say that there weren't religious leaders deserving of being called out for various improprieties. Of course there were. But it doesn't mean there was any kind of prohibition on the religious faithful engaging in local civic duties and governance.

There was certainly a separation between Judaism and and the Gentile world and the separation was largely religious. And Judaism was longing for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the earthly government of Rome they found themselves under.

And most definitely there was a separation in the first century between Judaism and the Roman Empire, if we consider them to be the "church" and "state" respectively. I think AD 70 put to rest what little confusion might remain on that point.

[barnhart]

I definitely see the issue you see in the Grok list of politicians. In these verses Jesus addresses the foundations of those who call themselves Christians but don't do what he taught as well as those who call themselves Christian and do what he taught. I believe followers of Jesus should focus their attention on alerting those who don't do what He taught that their foundation is faulty. Doing so is possible without appearing to be political.

Don't take the following as a personal affront. I'm just wanting a good discussion...

Why is it undesirable to appear political if one is indeed not political? Jesus made lots of statements about the civil and political leaders of his day who claimed to be following God and defenders of the scriptures. He warned people about their character, their hypocrisy, etc. He told people to follow their laws but not be like them. Do you see this as being something Jesus could do because he was the son of God, but not something his followers should do?

I look at driving the money changers out of the temple in this light. But I do not apply this to publicly calling out the sins and bad character of civil leaders.

I suspect almost everything Jesus did was viewed as a political act by those who felt threatened by his power and popularity, eating with and befriending the poor, the socially rejected, the sick, women, Samaritans, tax collectors etc... all this could upset the social order that depends on keeping some down and others up.

Today he would probably eat and associate with the undocumented or transgendered and when they asked what they should do he would say "go and sin no more" and many people would consider him political and get very angry.

[JohnH]

Today he would probably eat and associate with the undocumented or transgendered and when they asked what they should do he would say "go and sin no more" and many people would consider him political and get very angry.

The transgendered have been some of the most privileged in society - but it is true that Jesus did indeed eat with tax-gatherers and other wealthy, privileged people who nonetheless had rather grave sin areas in their life. The good news is that he showed them a way out of what they were in. I have no doubt that believers can do the same, and indeed the testimonies are encouraging of Christians who have done just that to (amongst others) illegal aliens and people caught in gender confusion.

[R7ehr]

Today he would probably eat and associate with the undocumented or transgendered and when they asked what they should do he would say "go and sin no more" and many people would consider him political and get very angry.

Probably so. I think many Mennonites would do the same individually. Where it seems like the disagreement is, is when we try to figure out
(A) what we should say to the state about these matters (if anything), and
(B) what course of action the state should take on these issues first the good of the country.

I think that we have difficulty or disagreement because
(A) we aren’t certain how much engagement we should have and
(B) the inherent incompatibility there is between the Kingdom of Heaven and kingdoms of the earth. Trying to bridge these or mix these, is like mixing matter and antimatter.

[Ernie]

Why is it undesirable to appear political if one is indeed not political? Jesus made lots of statements about the civil and political leaders of his day who claimed to be following God and defenders of the scriptures. He warned people about their character, their hypocrisy, etc. He told people to follow their laws but not be like them. Do you see this as being something Jesus could do because he was the son of God, but not something his followers should do?

I look at driving the money changers out of the temple in this light. But I do not apply this to publicly calling out the sins and bad character of civil leaders.

I realize I've said this a number of times in previous discussions like this but I believe the statements by Jesus you are referring to were, for the most part, made about and to the religious Jewish leaders such as the Scribes and Pharisees. If this is true, I believe we have an example to follow as it relates to calling out religious leaders today who do not practice the things Jesus taught and who lead others to build their lives on faulty foundations.

There was certainly a separation between Judaism and and the Gentile world and the separation was largely religious. And Judaism was longing for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the earthly government of Rome they found themselves under.

I realize I've said this a number of times in previous discussions like this but I believe the statements by Jesus you are referring to were, for the most part, made about and to the religious Jewish leaders such as the Scribes and Pharisees. If this is true, I believe we have an example to follow as it relates to calling out religious leaders today who do not practice the things Jesus taught and who lead others to build their lives on faulty foundations.

I am very open to looking at NT examples of Jesus or the Apostles addressing (calling out) worldly governmental leaders of their day or giving teaching on what good/bad worldly leaders looked like.

https://www.zondervan.com/the-party-politics-of-jesus/
This article describes how I look at the political climate at the time of Jesus. I do not share the author's view on politics and other matters.

This ideological split [at the time of Jesus] was expressed in two sets of opposing religio-political parties:
1. Cooperation with the Romans
-Sadducees
-Herodians
-Tax Collectors
2. Oppose the Romans
-Pharisees
-Siccari
-Zealots

Not all Jews were looking for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the Romans.

Religion and politics at that time were very intertwined, with some people being more focused on politics, and others being more focused on religion. (I think that very few prior to Christ (perhaps a few like John the Baptist, Anna, and Simeon) were not into politics.)

I think the same is true today. We have pastors becoming congressman, politicians invoking the blessing of pastors, and a whole slew of pundits as well as rank and file who are mixing religion and politics together.

So when Jesus spoke out against various philosophies and the leaders of various Jewish religious groups, he was also addressing their political leanings as well. When Jesus talked about paying taxes, honoring civil government, etc. he was addressing hot button political issues (without being political himself). I assume that many on the right thought Jesus was being political and I assume Jesus did not care.

[Nomad]

Why is it undesirable to appear political if one is indeed not political? Jesus made lots of statements about the civil and political leaders of his day who claimed to be following God and defenders of the scriptures. He warned people about their character, their hypocrisy, etc. He told people to follow their laws but not be like them. Do you see this as being something Jesus could do because he was the son of God, but not something his followers should do?

I look at driving the money changers out of the temple in this light. But I do not apply this to publicly calling out the sins and bad character of civil leaders.

I realize I've said this a number of times in previous discussions like this but I believe the statements by Jesus you are referring to were, for the most part, made about and to the religious Jewish leaders such as the Scribes and Pharisees. If this is true, I believe we have an example to follow as it relates to calling out religious leaders today who do not practice the things Jesus taught and who lead others to build their lives on faulty foundations.

There was certainly a separation between Judaism and and the Gentile world and the separation was largely religious. And Judaism was longing for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the earthly government of Rome they found themselves under.

I realize I've said this a number of times in previous discussions like this but I believe the statements by Jesus you are referring to were, for the most part, made about and to the religious Jewish leaders such as the Scribes and Pharisees. If this is true, I believe we have an example to follow as it relates to calling out religious leaders today who do not practice the things Jesus taught and who lead others to build their lives on faulty foundations.

I am very open to looking at NT examples of Jesus or the Apostles addressing (calling out) worldly governmental leaders of their day or giving teaching on what good/bad worldly leaders looked like.

https://www.zondervan.com/the-party-politics-of-jesus/
This article describes how I look at the political climate at the time of Jesus. I do not share the author's view on politics and other matters.

This ideological split [at the time of Jesus] was expressed in two sets of opposing religio-political parties:
1. Cooperation with the Romans
-Sadducees
-Herodians
-Tax Collectors
2. Oppose the Romans
-Pharisees
-Siccari
-Zealots

Not all Jews were looking for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the Romans.

Religion and politics at that time were very intertwined, with some people being more focused on politics, and others being more focused on religion. (I think that very few prior to Christ (perhaps a few like John the Baptist, Anna, and Simeon) were not into politics.)

I think the same is true today. We have pastors becoming congressman, politicians invoking the blessing of pastors, and a whole slew of pundits as well as rank and file who are mixing religion and politics together.

So when Jesus spoke out against various philosophies and the leaders of various Jewish religious groups, he was also addressing their political leanings as well. When Jesus talked about paying taxes, honoring civil government, etc. he was addressing hot button political issues (without being political himself). I assume that many on the right thought Jesus was being political and I assume Jesus did not care.

I think imposing labels of "right" or "left" upon people groups during the time of Christ is imposing American politics upon the situation that actually doesn't fit that time frame in history. Likely what we classify as "conservative" vs "liberal" was completely different during that time.

But, for illustration purposes I suppose you can make it work...somewhat...its just not a 1 for 1 comparison across the board.

[GaryK]

I am very open to looking at NT examples of Jesus or the Apostles addressing (calling out) worldly governmental leaders of their day or giving teaching on what good/bad worldly leaders looked like.

https://www.zondervan.com/the-party-politics-of-jesus/
This article describes how I look at the political climate at the time of Jesus. I do not share the author's view on politics and other matters.

This ideological split [at the time of Jesus] was expressed in two sets of opposing religio-political parties:
1. Cooperation with the Romans
-Sadducees
-Herodians
-Tax Collectors
2. Oppose the Romans
-Pharisees
-Siccari
-Zealots

Not all Jews were looking for the promised Messiah to deliver them from the Romans.

Religion and politics at that time were very intertwined, with some people being more focused on politics, and others being more focused on religion. (I think that very few prior to Christ (perhaps a few like John the Baptist, Anna, and Simeon) were not into politics.)

I think the same is true today. We have pastors becoming congressman, politicians invoking the blessing of pastors, and a whole slew of pundits as well as rank and file who are mixing religion and politics together.

So when Jesus spoke out against various philosophies and the leaders of various Jewish religious groups, he was also addressing their political leanings as well. When Jesus talked about paying taxes, honoring civil government, etc. he was addressing hot button political issues (without being political himself). I assume that many on the right thought Jesus was being political and I assume Jesus did not care.

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says "Except your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven". He then says numerous times "You have heard that it has been said...but I tell you..." I believe Jesus, in the SOM, is setting the stage for practically all of His following teachings and the quotes I just referenced are key factors in understanding the nature of the KOH. He's referring back to the religious laws the Scribes and Pharisees saw as binding on all Jewish people, not their current religio-political alignments.

When He was asked those gotcha questions about paying taxes, etc. and answered them, He left them speechless. Interestingly, the people asking the questions were a religio-political mix. Their speechlessness indicates to me that the answer Jesus gave transcended politics to the point that neither the pro or the anti-tax sides could find fault with what he said.

Perhaps I need a better understanding of what you mean by "calling out". What I think I have heard you advocating for in some recent threads is that we need to call out (go on record as opposing) the injustices done by whoever is in power, politicians who claim to be Christians but advocate for things Jesus teaches against and administration policies that are not in alignment with Jesus' teachings.

Here is a question that I believe will help me understand what you mean by "calling out". Would you be comfortable calling out Trump, Biden, Byron Donalds..., the immigration policies Trump is implementing, etc. in a Sunday sermon?

We recently had a speaker at our church who leans very strongly pre-millennial. In his talk he mentioned that we now have a president in office who is very pro-Israel compared to the last one and talked quite a lot about how the current geo-political state of the Middle East is likely all part of God's unfolding plan to restore Israel and usher in the return of Christ.

We have a 40 year old man (a baby in Christ) who recently has been attending our services and has a tremendous hunger to learn more about what it means to be a follower of Jesus. We are currently having regular Bible studies with him to encourage him on in the faith. After the service he asked the speaker "is this about politics?" The speaker answered by talking about how Trump is providing Israel with the weaponry needed to defend itself, etc., etc... Later on in a private conversation I asked this baby in Christ about the question he asked and he told me something to the effect that the speaker lauding Trump and speaking against Biden just did not sit well with him and that such things should not be coming across the pulpit. As he's answering, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, if a baby in Christ senses something is wrong with a follower of Jesus speaking out about why one president is better than another one as it relates to God's unfolding plan for Israel, there really must be something inherent in the NT KOG that transcends all earthly politics. If this is true and I think it is, then I believe it is important for us to align ourselves with that reality.