And often, we act that way when we get too absorbed in politics. The way we relate to each other changes. We are often much better when discussing other subjects. I think that's a sign that we are more influenced by them than we like to let on ...Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 27, 2025 9:10 am I don't think Christians should only be calling out politicians. I think they should call out anyone who is not following Jesus and anyone who supports those who are not following Jesus.
Romans 1
They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval and take pleasure in those who practice them.
Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
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JohnL
- Posts: 2790
- Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:40 pm
- Location: The Bionic Hillbilly
- Affiliation: Free Will Baptist
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
If a politician converts to Christianity would there be a new DEI category created just for the occasion? "Transreligion Politician".
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Free Will Baptist <-> Anabaptist
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
Does anyone on this forum look to the early Anabaptists for inspiration about relating to christians in government?
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Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. I haven't looked into this particular aspect of it.
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Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
First off, I think this is a great thread. Thanks, GaryK, for starting it!
I think we represent different parts of the Anabaptist tradition, with slightly different takes on Two Kingdom theology. You are generally closer to Sattler, I am generally closer to Pilgram Marpeck. I believe in the Two Kingdoms, and I think it is essential to "seek first the Kingdom of God", but I don't see government as inherently anti-Christian. Romans 13 doesn’t just call us to submit. It calls government God’s servant for our good. That doesn’t mean it always lives up to that calling, but it does mean government has a legitimate role in God's purposes, even if it's mostly limited to restraining evil, not redeeming people and reconciling them to God. And obviously, there are times we cannot submit to government because it is opposing the Kingdom of God.
In Romans 13, Paul was writing about submission to a Roman emperor—Nero Caesar, who ultimately ordered both Peter and Paul to be killed. We live in a democracy, which is a very different kind of government. We can openly criticize government or discuss their decisions without fear. Most of our discussions here are about government. I wish we had more discussion of other things, but I think both voters and non-voters are interested in government because it overlaps with the concerns we have as the Kingdom of God: protecting the weak against the powerful, practicing our faith without persecution, ethics, justice, truth-telling, and the treatment of neighbors and strangers. These are core to the teachings of Jesus, and they often intersect with political questions, whether we like it or not.
At its best, I think America has reflected certain Christian principles—justice, rule of law, concern for the vulnerable—even though it often falls short. I don’t think being part of government automatically puts someone outside of Christ’s kingdom, though it does raise serious questions about allegiance and priorities. The way we discuss politics here raises the same questions. For all of us.
I think we represent different parts of the Anabaptist tradition, with slightly different takes on Two Kingdom theology. You are generally closer to Sattler, I am generally closer to Pilgram Marpeck. I believe in the Two Kingdoms, and I think it is essential to "seek first the Kingdom of God", but I don't see government as inherently anti-Christian. Romans 13 doesn’t just call us to submit. It calls government God’s servant for our good. That doesn’t mean it always lives up to that calling, but it does mean government has a legitimate role in God's purposes, even if it's mostly limited to restraining evil, not redeeming people and reconciling them to God. And obviously, there are times we cannot submit to government because it is opposing the Kingdom of God.
In Romans 13, Paul was writing about submission to a Roman emperor—Nero Caesar, who ultimately ordered both Peter and Paul to be killed. We live in a democracy, which is a very different kind of government. We can openly criticize government or discuss their decisions without fear. Most of our discussions here are about government. I wish we had more discussion of other things, but I think both voters and non-voters are interested in government because it overlaps with the concerns we have as the Kingdom of God: protecting the weak against the powerful, practicing our faith without persecution, ethics, justice, truth-telling, and the treatment of neighbors and strangers. These are core to the teachings of Jesus, and they often intersect with political questions, whether we like it or not.
At its best, I think America has reflected certain Christian principles—justice, rule of law, concern for the vulnerable—even though it often falls short. I don’t think being part of government automatically puts someone outside of Christ’s kingdom, though it does raise serious questions about allegiance and priorities. The way we discuss politics here raises the same questions. For all of us.
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
Those are not the task of government. The government is about bearing the sword, and gaining a monopoly on force, so it can then force people to do what it wants. Governments are generally run by powerful people who use it to gain even more power. The idea government is about “truth telling” and “protecting the weak” is rather laughable.I wish we had more discussion of other things, but I think both voters and non-voters are interested in government because it overlaps with the concerns we have as the Kingdom of God: protecting the weak against the powerful, practicing our faith without persecution, ethics, justice, truth-telling, and the treatment of neighbors and strangers. These are core to the teachings of Jesus—and they often intersect with political questions, whether we like it or not.
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JohnL
- Posts: 2790
- Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:40 pm
- Location: The Bionic Hillbilly
- Affiliation: Free Will Baptist
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
Me too. With all the different kinds of Anabaptists there's probably a great many perspectives on it I'm thinking.
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Free Will Baptist <-> Anabaptist
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
Don't know how well this fits with answering the question... (Good, hard to answer question btw - not sure we humans can fully answer it - although I will say personally, I lean towards saying, "Yes, a politician, while in office, can be a follower of Jesus...with caveats... see below).
The article, "A Confessing Church for America's Weimar Moment" is paywalled, but maybe some of you have access or it seems the article is generating a little buzz, so maybe it's being quoted elsewhere, but I liked some of the thoughts shared. If you don't see quotes elsewhere, you will now - here!
(Some of the lines echo an apolitical plain Menno stance... although I don't thing either author is anything close to that.)
I think if there were more claiming Christian politicians who openly declared as Independents, again I would answer the question with a "Yes". But, In the US's current insane binary system, then I would lean more to saying, "NO". But if we lived in a parliamentary system with multiple parties and you could actually elect and seat in parliament someone who's independence from all other parties was actually a viable thing, then again, I would lean towards saying, "Yes, possible" (depending on their courage and principles they might be a coalition of one, never joining the major ruling coalitions that are often part of parliamentary systems).
More from the article:
The article, "A Confessing Church for America's Weimar Moment" is paywalled, but maybe some of you have access or it seems the article is generating a little buzz, so maybe it's being quoted elsewhere, but I liked some of the thoughts shared. If you don't see quotes elsewhere, you will now - here!
(Some of the lines echo an apolitical plain Menno stance... although I don't thing either author is anything close to that.)
Could an elected representative bring this kind of attitude and principle to the very place where the parties rub shoulders and deliberate? Yeah, I think so. They might be a party of one, but I think possible."It isn’t hard to find bad guys: They’re all around us. But if we recognize that there isn’t a single bad guy, bad group, or bad party—but many of them—we should hesitate before thinking that we are living through 1933. Maybe the calling of the American church today isn’t to mount a heroic resistance unto death against a singular moral evil that unites all people of good conscience in opposition. Maybe the calling of the church today is to recognize injustices and evils all around us, to maintain our independence, and above all to be an advocate: not for one party or the other, but for lawfulness and peace among political tribes." - Michael Reneau and Paul D. Miller
I think if there were more claiming Christian politicians who openly declared as Independents, again I would answer the question with a "Yes". But, In the US's current insane binary system, then I would lean more to saying, "NO". But if we lived in a parliamentary system with multiple parties and you could actually elect and seat in parliament someone who's independence from all other parties was actually a viable thing, then again, I would lean towards saying, "Yes, possible" (depending on their courage and principles they might be a coalition of one, never joining the major ruling coalitions that are often part of parliamentary systems).
More from the article:
Enough for now. Maybe I will post some other snippets later. I like the list of 'lessons' or teaching that the Church should disciple its members in. MN would be blessed if we/I put more of those teachings into practice."A Confessing Church would accept the necessity of party activity and partisan elections. But a Confessing Church would acknowledge the inescapable realities of sin and injustice in every human institution, including every political party. It would wholeheartedly reject any suggestion that one party or movement is the party of God. It would expect to find every human institution, including every party, complicit with various injustices.
That means a Confessing Church will counsel its members not to give their loyalty to a party, especially in times such as this. We may cooperate with a party on narrow issues where possible—such as abortion, crime, or poverty—yet we should refrain from identifying with the party, giving them our allegiance, letting them thrive off our moral support. We should withhold something from them, even if only to teach them that they do not own us. There is no compelling reason to identify yourself as a Republican or a Democrat. Do not give them the dignity of identifying as one of them." - Michael Reneau and Paul D. Miller
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A Confessing Church would acknowledge the inescapable realities of sin and injustice in every human institution, including every political party. It would wholeheartedly reject any suggestion that one party or movement is the party of God. Paul D Miller
Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
Another politician can follow Jesus while in office, the similar to the way that an urban legend follows an original event of person. Far away. Inherently inconsistent. Inaccurate. Disappears for a while, and then resurfaces in a distorted form when someone brings it up. Sounds like a lot of Christians.
Or some do like the way a wolf follows a caribou. Picks up the track, chases. Goes a different way for a while. Might backtrack in the opposite direction if it spots a more attractive prey. But it is not part of the migration of caribou, and isn’t following carefully for the reasons the young caribou are in their migration to the new land.
Or some do like the way a wolf follows a caribou. Picks up the track, chases. Goes a different way for a while. Might backtrack in the opposite direction if it spots a more attractive prey. But it is not part of the migration of caribou, and isn’t following carefully for the reasons the young caribou are in their migration to the new land.
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Re: Can Politicians be Followers of Jesus?
I'm not enough of a historian to make too many generalizations but I do recall reading a petition for freedom written an Anabaptist to the magistrate under whose authority he was being imprisoned that began "Dear beloved brother in Christ..." and went on to encourage him to consider the scripture.
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