Mennonite Measles in Texas

[Ken]

I have chosen not to place my religious belief in a hope of vaccines. As I may remind you, we were told the COVID vaccine prevented infection. It did not.

No, you place it in internet conspiracy theories that have not a thread of proof.

Actually the claim was that it prevented transmission. Prevents is not an absolute term, it means to suppress or reduce it. I do not recall hearing that it completely eliminated any possibility of transmission, although people may have said that.

None of the clinical trials actually looked at the question of transmission. Which is an exceedingly difficult thing to control for and study.

It is relatively easy to give a bunch of people the vaccine and determine if the vaccine reduces the chance of them getting sick or dying. We compare the incidence of illness and death among the vaccinated population to the incidence of illness and death of the unvaccinated population and control for demographic factors like age, sex, race, and pre-existing conditions.

But it is very difficult to determine if a vaccinated person passed the virus on to anyone else. Because when a pandemic is raging all around us, how to you know exactly who passed it to who? Especially when there are asymptomatic carriers all over the place? And people are out living their lives and coming into contact with lots of strangers.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Rest assured I studied science in college so I am not “scientifically illiterate”.

I was mostly persuaded by a board certified medical provider who also has a doctorate. She is not scientifically illiterate either. Just because people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean they are ignorant.

It's called "Turbo Cancer" and is indeed a conspiracy spawned by the anti-vax crowd.

2021: gets vaccine
2022: gets cancer #1, treated, major complications
2023: gets cancer #2, treated, still recovering from complications
2024: gets cancer #3. Brutal chemotherapy so operating is even possible.
2025: major surgery for cancer #3.

-or-

2021: doesn’t get the vaccine
2022:
2023:
2024: had a cold? Was it Covid? Who knows?
2025:

There are a vast number of doctors and nurses who agree with you zJohnH

Not so many as you seem to think.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Have you bothered to read the EUA submission ? It contained large scale double blind studies with an independent monitor holding the coded results until the endpoint was reached. It was VERY effective at preventing symptomatic COVID. The entire EUA submission is available, if you bothered to look.

I did. The actual amount of trials performed was laughable (from memory, it was around 34 people who were conducted in a double-blind fashion and that was over a span of a few weeks). I will be frank: seeing how much "science" was skipped and the entire normal process for making safe vaccines short-circuited is a large part of what led me to lose my faith in the priesthood of vaccine "science".

Your memory must either be defective, or you never read it at all. Look at the number of subjects in the combined Phase 2/3 trial and add up the experimental arm and the control arm. The number comes to over 40,000. Do you know what you are looking at.

The Phase 1 investigation has only to do with short term safety and dose determination. That is not where they look for clinical efficacy.

So, there were 40,000 plus in the BioNTec investigation in support of the EUA. That is a healthy number. I have included it below, but be careful, you really need to know the lingo to understand what they are talking about. If you are citing 34 subjects you must have conflated the Phase 1 study with the Phase 2/3 trial.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download

[Judas Maccabeus]

I have chosen not to place my religious belief in a hope of vaccines. As I may remind you, we were told the COVID vaccine prevented infection. It did not.

No, you place it in internet conspiracy theories that have not a thread of proof.

Actually the claim was that it prevented transmission. Prevents is not an absolute term, it means to suppress or reduce it. I do not recall hearing that it completely eliminated any possibility of transmission, although people may have said that.

None of the clinical trials actually looked at the question of transmission. Which is an exceedingly difficult thing to control for and study.

It is relatively easy to give a bunch of people the vaccine and determine if the vaccine reduces the chance of them getting sick or dying. We compare the incidence of illness and death among the vaccinated population to the incidence of illness and death of the unvaccinated population and control for demographic factors like age, sex, race, and pre-existing conditions.

But it is very difficult to determine if a vaccinated person passed the virus on to anyone else. Because when a pandemic is raging all around us, how to you know exactly who passed it to who? Especially when there are asymptomatic carriers all over the place? And people are out living their lives and coming into contact with lots of strangers.

They did not look at infections that did not manifest clinically in the Phase 2/3 trial. To do that, they would have had to do PCR tests at least biweekly on all 40,000 subjects. PCR tests were in short supply at that point. COVID was not well enough understood at that point, and almost certainly the focus was on keeping people from getting sick. It likely suppresses transmission, but it does not eliminate it entirely.

Fun fact, I tried to get on the Novavax Trial, which was conducted in my fair city. I failed, they had their quota in short time. I got my first shot on day 1 of “teacher “ availability, and actually needed a letter from the school.

[Valerie]

Rest assured I studied science in college so I am not “scientifically illiterate”.

I was mostly persuaded by a board certified medical provider who also has a doctorate. She is not scientifically illiterate either. Just because people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean they are ignorant.



2021: gets vaccine
2022: gets cancer #1, treated, major complications
2023: gets cancer #2, treated, still recovering from complications
2024: gets cancer #3. Brutal chemotherapy so operating is even possible.
2025: major surgery for cancer #3.

-or-

2021: doesn’t get the vaccine
2022:
2023:
2024: had a cold? Was it Covid? Who knows?
2025:

There are a vast number of doctors and nurses who agree with you zJohnH

Not so many as you seem to think.

Since some of them are Christians, I do feel more trust in their findings and believe their science but this may be my growing distrust in big pharma, power & money

[R7ehr]

There are a vast number of doctors and nurses who agree with you zJohnH

Not so many as you seem to think.

Since some of them are Christians, I do feel more trust in their findings and believe their science but this may be my growing distrust in big pharma, power & money

Would it surprise you to hear how many saying that vaccines are good/safe/etc., also say they are Christians?

If someone I don’t know personally uses their religion as “proof” that they are telling the truth, that is a red flag for me. Truth should be demonstrably true, not dependent on decorative props, or cloaks of righteousness. Charlatans galore on every side.

[Valerie]

Not so many as you seem to think.

Since some of them are Christians, I do feel more trust in their findings and believe their science but this may be my growing distrust in big pharma, power & money

Would it surprise you to hear how many saying that vaccines are good/safe/etc., also say they are Christians?

If someone I don’t know personally uses their religion as “proof” that they are telling the truth, that is a red flag for me. Truth should be demonstrably true, not dependent on decorative props, or cloaks of righteousness. Charlatans galore on every side.

I didn’t say they were using their Christianity as a means to convince anyone. They are Christians, separate issue, they are doctors and nurses who believe other science.
If you have a distrust of big pharma, there are reasons.

[JohnH]

Given it basically ends your career it’s amazing any doctors will speak out at all. I guess many have integrity.

[Ken]

Given it basically ends your career it’s amazing any doctors will speak out at all. I guess many have integrity.

The vast majority of doctors speak out frequently and emphatically on a daily basis about the importance of childhood vaccinations. Just because you don't like what they are telling you doesn't mean they aren't speaking out every time they see a patient or parent.

You will generally have to search far and wide to find doctor who doesn't support childhood vaccination. In fact, surveys suggest that about 99% of pediatricians support childhood vaccination. But like every other profession, medicine too has its odd cranks.

[JohnH]

And 99% of doctors probably used to engage in bloodletting.