Mennonite Measles in Texas

[Ken]

[snip]

Ken,

Do you think abortion is wrong?

Do you think letting innocent children die of preventable diseases is wrong?

What? You want to change the subject to abortion now because you can’t defend your position on measles? If you want to talk abortion, feel free to start a new thread on abortion and I may or may not decide to weigh in depending on how intelligent and thoughtful the discussion is.

[JohnH]

Do you think letting innocent children die of preventable diseases is wrong?

Diseases are not 100% preventable. There are trade-offs with everything. I think choices should be left up to parents and individual conscience.

What? You want to change the subject to abortion now because you can’t defend your position on measles?

I've defended my position just fine. Families may choose if they want to use the measles vaccine or not. Since you claim the measles vaccine works so well, it shouldn't affect you at all. Leave others to make their own choices and you make yours.

I'll repeat my question, since you keep dodging it.

Do you think abortion is wrong?

[Ken]

Do you think letting innocent children die of preventable diseases is wrong?

Diseases are not 100% preventable. There are trade-offs with everything. I think choices should be left up to parents and individual conscience.

The law already gives you that choice. But it doesn’t compel other people to agree with you or approve of your decisions.

[JohnH]

Do you think letting innocent children die of preventable diseases is wrong?

Diseases are not 100% preventable. There are trade-offs with everything. I think choices should be left up to parents and individual conscience.

The law already gives you that choice. But it doesn’t compel other people to agree with you or approve of your decisions.

Do you believe abortion is wrong, or not?

(If you choose to refuse to state your position, please state so - but it will be impossible to discuss further my conscience against the measles vaccine significantly. My objection to it is chiefly concerning its used of aborted baby parts in researching and manufacturing it. As I have chosen not to do this I have researched what "harm" may come from not using vaccines and have found the harm to be quite minimal, despite the fearmongering.)

[Ken]

Diseases are not 100% preventable. There are trade-offs with everything. I think choices should be left up to parents and individual conscience.

The law already gives you that choice. But it doesn’t compel other people to agree with you or approve of your decisions.

Do you believe abortion is wrong, or not?

(If you choose to refuse to state your position, please state so - but it will be impossible to discuss further my conscience against the measles vaccine significantly. My objection to it is chiefly concerning its used of aborted baby parts in researching and manufacturing it. As I have chosen not to do this I have researched what "harm" may come from not using vaccines and have found the harm to be quite minimal, despite the fearmongering.)

I followed the coverage of this case and the interviews of the parents involved. Not one of them ever mentioned abortion as factor in their decision not to vaccinate their children. Nor has their church made any other religious argument whatsoever against vaccination. It is all just laundering of the same tired old anti-vax misinformation. Which is based on science illiteracy, not conscience.

[Judas Maccabeus]

No. But I would suggest that the individuals doing this need some serious counseling. Measles can kill, or do you deny that?

Some people are opposed to having anyone tell them the risks of their decisions. I think it’s very reasonable for the state to require education on the risks.

I think the rebuttal to measles can kill, would be that the common cold can kill too.
There is a stark difference, though, between a pox party for chickenpox and one for measles.

Measles is far, far more likely to kill.

[JohnH]

I followed the coverage of this case and the interviews of the parents involved. Not one of them ever mentioned abortion as factor in their decision not to vaccinate their children.

I an not those people and will not second-guess their decisions. I will respect their choices however. I do not want to run their lives for them.

Nor has their church made any other religious argument whatsoever against vaccination. It is all just laundering of the same tired old anti-vax misinformation. Which is based on science illiteracy, not conscience.

Ken, I would you hope you could understand that conscience is an individual thing, not something we do because "church" tells us to make an argument. I hold my beliefs quite seriously and am willing to undergo suffering, disease, death, and punishment to hold them. I made this decision sometime ago, when I was facing the possibility of being unable to work or provide for my family if I would not submit to a forced COVID vaccination. My family and I discussed it and we decided it would be better to enter heaven poor and starving than to enter hell wealthy and well-fed.

Now, can you please do one of these two things?

#1. Tell me if you think abortion is wrong or not.

#2. Tell me that you aren't going to tell me, and you would like me to stop asking.

Thank you. I do not want to persistently bother you, but it is a rather basic question that is very relevant to this debate. And so far, I have not seen you share your own conscience on the issue. I feel like you keep deflecting to other things. I prefer not to pester you, but when discussing whether or not we should inject ourselves with ground-up aborted babies, the first place to start is whether we think grinding up babies via abortion is wrong in the first place.

[Soloist]

Measles is far, far more likely to kill.

I agree completely, and I hope that that was obvious by what I actually wrote.
As I said, chickenpox parties is one thing…

[Ken]

I followed the coverage of this case and the interviews of the parents involved. Not one of them ever mentioned abortion as factor in their decision not to vaccinate their children.

I an not those people and will not second-guess their decisions. I will respect their choices however. I do not want to run their lives for them.

Nor has their church made any other religious argument whatsoever against vaccination. It is all just laundering of the same tired old anti-vax misinformation. Which is based on science illiteracy, not conscience.

Ken, I would you hope you could understand that conscience is an individual thing, not something we do because "church" tells us to make an argument. I hold my beliefs quite seriously and am willing to undergo suffering, disease, death, and punishment to hold them. I made this decision sometime ago, when I was facing the possibility of being unable to work or provide for my family if I would not submit to a forced COVID vaccination. My family and I discussed it and we decided it would be better to enter heaven poor and starving than to enter hell wealthy and well-fed.

Now, can you please do one of these two things?

#1. Tell me if you think abortion is wrong or not.

#2. Tell me that you aren't going to tell me, and you would like me to stop asking.

Thank you. I do not want to persistently bother you, but it is a rather basic question that is very relevant to this debate. And so far, I have not seen you share your own conscience on the issue. I feel like you keep deflecting to other things. I prefer not to pester you, but when discussing whether or not we should inject ourselves with ground-up aborted babies, the first place to start is whether we think grinding up babies via abortion is wrong in the first place.

Again. No one involved in this case has made any religious based arguments of conscience. It is all just routine antivax misinformation based on scientific illiteracy.

As for your question about abortion? I think it is generally wrong but not always. Circumstances matter. I also think that, like vaccinations, it is an issue that doesn’t lend itself well to blanket criminalization. So basically the same exact position that you take with respect to vaccinations.

[JohnH]

Again. No one involved in this case has made any religious based arguments of conscience. It is all just routine antivax misinformation based on scientific illiteracy.

I made my argument for why I decline the MMR vaccine. Regarding the family in Texas, first of all, you do not know them nor know what their convictions are. Mennonites tend to be very private when talking to the press and will not generally assert their "rights".

As far as "scientific illiteracy", there are views on both sides. I would not call either of them "illiterate". I have not called you illiterate, but you should not call them illiterate.

As for your question about abortion? I think it is generally wrong but not always. Circumstances matter. I also think that, like vaccinations, it is an issue that doesn’t lend itself well to blanket criminalization. So basically the same exact position that you take with respect to vaccinations.

Thank you for answering the question.