Dutch/Russian Mennonites

[Ernie]

But we do know that it took hold among two main groups of people, speakers of Frisian, and Flemish. Not only did they speak different dialects of Dutch, but also differed in cultural ways that remained as distinctive practices in church life until fairly recently, and perhaps even today, in some areas.

These were both light-haired and light-skinned? Or did this include the "black Dutch" as well?

[JohnH]

Generally speaking Russian Mennonites are lighter-haired than Swiss background people. It's one of the easiest ways to assess which "background" a given plain person might have if you're in a mixed Swiss - Russian setting.

There seems to have been very little admixture from Slavic people in Russia into Russian Mennonites. We are certainly aware of some who converted, but there isn't much information to show that any migrated to America or Canada. (I don't know about the later migrations to Paraguay, etc.)

Some of my wife's family did those genetic testing ancestry services and lots of matches come up in present-day Russian/Ukraine disputed territory. It would seem a lot of Russian Mennonites stayed behind and eventually just became part of the people groups there. My other argument for there being very little admixture is the absence of Russian or Ukrainian dishes amongst Russian Mennonites; the only one I can think of is vareniki. Their cuisine somehow managed to remain similar to Dutch cuisine in the 1600s - except fish is almost absent.

Finally, no discussion of Russian Mennonites would be complete without discussing present-day ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians who are present-day Mennonites. In my denomination there are a few in Russia and were quite a few in Ukraine - however, most of them have fled due to the "Special Military Operation" which results in the young men being forcibly drafted. So they have fled to places like Poland, and in fact there is a new mission operation there in Poland due to the desire of the Ukrainian members to share the gospel in their new setting.

Others have also migrated abroad, such as one woman who went to Israel due to better job opportunities. There are significant amounts of Ukrainians and Russians in Israel - and in many other places.

[Neto]

It is also possible that this family name came from English refugees who fled their own country for religious freedom in the Netherlands. (A ship sat in the harbor for some months, with the Dutch authorities refusing to allow the passengers to come ashore. Menno Simons went out to the ship and food and other supplies were given to the people. They were later allowed to disembark, and while most returned to their own country, being unwilling to accept non-resistance, but some did stay.)

I don't know anything about this story. English refugees? Holland refused to let them stay because they were not non-resistant?

They were being persecuted in England because they believed in and practiced believer's baptism. Many (perhaps most) did not stay in Holland because later the mood changed back in England, and they were allowed more religious freedoms. Some accepted non-resistance, and so became a part of Dutch anabaptism'. I don't know if there were any non-resistant Christian groups in England. (I SHOULD know, since the Bible college where I took Church History was of English-language heritage, tracing their church development back to movements in England. But I do not recall any. I think that some Baptist groups count themselves as being descended from this group, sort of the "fighting cousins of the Dutch anabaptists'.)

(The reason they were initially not allowed to leave the ship was due to some sort of communicable sickness on the ship.)

[Neto]

But we do know that it took hold among two main groups of people, speakers of Frisian, and Flemish. Not only did they speak different dialects of Dutch, but also differed in cultural ways that remained as distinctive practices in church life until fairly recently, and perhaps even today, in some areas.

These were both light-haired and light-skinned? Or did this include the "black Dutch" as well?

I do not know the answer to that question. There is a wide range of coloring, both hair & skin, within the Plautdietsch ethnicity.

How would you characterize this among the Swiss Brethren? One thing I've noticed is that the SB skull shape tends strongly toward a flat back of the head. The typical Plautdietsch head shape is longer and narrower in proportion, and there tends to be a very pronounced 'point' in the back. Also, there is a tendency to have a point at the top of the forehead, just at the hairline. Hairlines will usually have at least one point, in the center. three points are also common. (That is what I have.) We have very bony looking heads, when bald, or with close-cropped hair.

As for the SB, I can sense the 'ethnic smell' of Swiss people, which smells something like corn to me. I smell it on my wife's breath (regardless of diet), and I could smell it on a Swiss-Argentine (he was born in Argentina, but of total Swiss descent) Bible translator friend. (I said something once that struck him funny when we were talking, and he laughed loudly just as he turned toward me. It isn't exactly a 'corn smell', that's just what I would compare it to.) I certainly do not mean this in any kind of derogatory way, either. Just to be clear. After all, I knew it already before I married my wife.

[Ernie]

But we do know that it took hold among two main groups of people, speakers of Frisian, and Flemish. Not only did they speak different dialects of Dutch, but also differed in cultural ways that remained as distinctive practices in church life until fairly recently, and perhaps even today, in some areas.

These were both light-haired and light-skinned? Or did this include the "black Dutch" as well?

I do not know the answer to that question. There is a wide range of coloring, both hair & skin, within the Plautdietsch ethnicity.

How would you characterize this among the Swiss Brethren? One thing I've noticed is that the SB skull shape tends strongly toward a flat back of the head. The typical Plautdietsch head shape is longer and narrower in proportion, and there tends to be a very pronounced 'point' in the back. Also, there is a tendency to have a point at the top of the forehead, just at the hairline. Hairlines will usually have at least one point, in the center. three points are also common. (That is what I have.) We have very bony looking heads, when bald, or with close-cropped hair.

As for the SB, I can sense the 'ethnic smell' of Swiss people, which smells something like corn to me. I smell it on my wife's breath (regardless of diet), and I could smell it on a Swiss-Argentine (he was born in Argentina, but of total Swiss descent) Bible translator friend. (I said something once that struck him funny when we were talking, and he laughed loudly just as he turned toward me. It isn't exactly a 'corn smell', that's just what I would compare it to.) I certainly do not mean this in any kind of derogatory way, either. Just to be clear. After all, I knew it already before I married my wife.

I can recognize many Dutch/Russian Mennonites by their complexion. Often a ruddier skin, the facial bones, etc. Never stopped to think about hair.

Swiss/German Mennonites? Again, I often know one when I see one but not always. I do often notice other Caucasians sometimes around town and think to myself, "I've never seen anyone like that in a Swiss/German Mennonite church. I wonder what country or ethnicity that look comes from."

And SB smell... that is a new one. Chinese "smell" is different from Swiss/Germans, but I've not known if it is the food we eat or our genetics.

[R7ehr]

But we do know that it took hold among two main groups of people, speakers of Frisian, and Flemish. Not only did they speak different dialects of Dutch, but also differed in cultural ways that remained as distinctive practices in church life until fairly recently, and perhaps even today, in some areas.

These were both light-haired and light-skinned? Or did this include the "black Dutch" as well?

I do not know the answer to that question. There is a wide range of coloring, both hair & skin, within the Plautdietsch ethnicity.

How would you characterize this among the Swiss Brethren? One thing I've noticed is that the SB skull shape tends strongly toward a flat back of the head. The typical Plautdietsch head shape is longer and narrower in proportion, and there tends to be a very pronounced 'point' in the back. Also, there is a tendency to have a point at the top of the forehead, just at the hairline. Hairlines will usually have at least one point, in the center. three points are also common. (That is what I have.) We have very bony looking heads, when bald, or with close-cropped hair.

As for the SB, I can sense the 'ethnic smell' of Swiss people, which smells something like corn to me. I smell it on my wife's breath (regardless of diet), and I could smell it on a Swiss-Argentine (he was born in Argentina, but of total Swiss descent) Bible translator friend. (I said something once that struck him funny when we were talking, and he laughed loudly just as he turned toward me. It isn't exactly a 'corn smell', that's just what I would compare it to.) I certainly do not mean this in any kind of derogatory way, either. Just to be clear. After all, I knew it already before I married my wife.

[HondurasKeiser]

These were both light-haired and light-skinned? Or did this include the "black Dutch" as well?

I do not know the answer to that question. There is a wide range of coloring, both hair & skin, within the Plautdietsch ethnicity.

How would you characterize this among the Swiss Brethren? One thing I've noticed is that the SB skull shape tends strongly toward a flat back of the head. The typical Plautdietsch head shape is longer and narrower in proportion, and there tends to be a very pronounced 'point' in the back. Also, there is a tendency to have a point at the top of the forehead, just at the hairline. Hairlines will usually have at least one point, in the center. three points are also common. (That is what I have.) We have very bony looking heads, when bald, or with close-cropped hair.

As for the SB, I can sense the 'ethnic smell' of Swiss people, which smells something like corn to me. I smell it on my wife's breath (regardless of diet), and I could smell it on a Swiss-Argentine (he was born in Argentina, but of total Swiss descent) Bible translator friend. (I said something once that struck him funny when we were talking, and he laughed loudly just as he turned toward me. It isn't exactly a 'corn smell', that's just what I would compare it to.) I certainly do not mean this in any kind of derogatory way, either. Just to be clear. After all, I knew it already before I married my wife.

I can recognize many Dutch/Russian Mennonites by their complexion. Often a ruddier skin, the facial bones, etc. Never stopped to think about hair.

Swiss/German Mennonites? Again, I often know one when I see one but not always. I do often notice other Caucasians sometimes around town and think to myself, "I've never seen anyone like that in a Swiss/German Mennonite church. I wonder what country or ethnicity that look comes from."

And SB smell... that is a new one. Chinese "smell" is different from Swiss/Germans, but I've not known if it is the food we eat or our genetics.

I've always found it easy to pick our Swiss/German Mennonite background folk (even without the distinctive dress) out of a crowd. There's a even a difference in appearance between Franconia folk and Lancaster folk that i didn't realize existed until I went to college and became good friends with a number of people from the Franconia Conference.