Your best friend's mom ...

[ohio jones]

... need I go on?

Question...do you have a collection on your computer of causation and correlation cartoons for moments like these or do moments like these lead to you create a collection of causation and correlation cartoons?

I collect many things, but in this case the posting of said cartoons was not mere correlation.

[Ken]

Let's look at some real numbers. The maximum in federal student loans that you can borrow for undergraduate college education is $31,000. The current student loan interest rates are about 6% so if you amortize that out for the standard 10-year payment period that comes to a monthly payment of $344.16. For the median 20-something graduate with a debt of $20,900 the monthly payment will be $232.03. That is a Starbucks habit for some people.

This thread went down this trail when someone claimed that college educated people were more likely to get married. To other college educated people. And they are more likely to have children.

So now we have a median 20-something married couple with children, both college graduates with median debt, with a total monthly student loan payment around $500. Since that's the median, half of them will have higher payments. And if they learned anything in college, they should be making more than the minimum payment to get out of debt sooner. And since they both have to work to pay their student loans and other debts (two cars and furniture at least, because if they have student loans they obviously didn't have enough savings to buy those), the kids have to go to day care, compounding the expense. Add in taxes, tithe, rent, utilities, gas, insurance, and a case of ramen noodles, and there's not much left.

Nevertheless they have it better then their non-college attending counterparts. Because they are: (1) more likely to get married, (2) less likely to get divorced, and (3) more likely to raise their children in stable 2-parent households. They are also more likely to be employed, have health insurance, and retirement savings. And much less likely to be unemployed, in poverty, or prison.

[Ken]

The people I've known with the worst student loan debt are the ones who pursued graduate degrees - that's how you hit numbers like $100,000 in debt. Isn't a "master's degree" being "more educated"? Yet the people I've known with them often struggled to find jobs. An acquaintance of mine was a librarian. She couldn't find work with a bachelors in library science, so she went and got a master's instead. The job she eventually found (a government job) didn't pay that well, but she was hoping to stay in it long enough to get loan forgiveness.

Do you think people who go into library science to become librarians are making bad choices? The reality is that doing so tends to involve a lot of student loan debt.

In my experience there are basically three reasons why people go to college:

1. To earn the necessary credentials for a professional career (teaching, nursing, medicine, engineering, etc.). That choice is generally a good investment if you pick a marketable career and don't do silly things like pay full price for an Ivy League education if you intend to teach at a public school in rural Texas. This is the practical route most middle class folks take. Often involving public universities and directional schools close to home. A whole lot of my HS students go down this road successfully.

2. To earn a pedigree. A lot of professions are about who you know and an Ivy league (or comparable) degree is the entry ticket into this world. That is how you find a wealthy upper class spouse. And it is how you find elite jobs in business and finance. That frat brother you peel off the parking lot your freshmen year might have a dad who is a bank president who will hire you 3 years later.

3. To actually pursue knowledge. These are the people who pursue things like graduate degrees in Elizabethan Poetry or Greek literature. If you are independently wealthy, living off a trust fund or daddy, then fine. If you are part of that world then your college education is a relatively minor expense compared to the beach house in the Hamptons or estate in the south of France. And student loans aren't a part of your world anyway. But if you are of modest means you should be open-eyed about the financial choices you are making. Especially if you are racking up big debt at expensive private universities to do this. At least in the sciences, grad students going down this route usually get teaching or research assistantships along with tuition waivers so don't wind up in debt, or increasing their debt.

To answer your question? Is going $100k into debt to get a masters degree in library science a wise decision? Probably not financially. That is a shrinking profession as schools, colleges, and public libraries are cutting staff. If you are independently wealthy and that is what you want to study then fine. I have a neighbor down the street who probably just blew $100k or more on a new wake boat. Is spending money on education a better or worse decision that that? I dunno. In any event, I have a first cousin who studied library science, landed a job at an Ivy League university and has since worked her way up to one of the top administrative jobs within the university's tech and IT department. But she is in her 60s now. I'm not sure that pathway would be as open to her today if she were 25.

[Robert]

Nevertheless they have it better then their non-college attending counterparts. Because they are: (1) more likely to get married, (2) less likely to get divorced, and (3) more likely to raise their children in stable 2-parent households. They are also more likely to be employed, have health insurance, and retirement savings. And much less likely to be unemployed, in poverty, or prison.

How many actually go into the field their degree is in or have they been convinced they needed to go to college to get a better job and the ones who have some intrinsic motivation pushed into college when many could have gone into trades and become parents?

[Ken]

Nevertheless they have it better then their non-college attending counterparts. Because they are: (1) more likely to get married, (2) less likely to get divorced, and (3) more likely to raise their children in stable 2-parent households. They are also more likely to be employed, have health insurance, and retirement savings. And much less likely to be unemployed, in poverty, or prison.

How many actually go into the field their degree is in or have they been convinced they needed to go to college to get a better job and the ones who have some intrinsic motivation pushed into college when many could have gone into trades and become parents?

It kind of doesn't matter. A college education is (or should be) well rounded. My daughter who is a college freshman and majoring in psychology is taking science, math, history, English, and languages as well as the courses within her major. In all of her classes she is engaged in research and writing and developing critical thinking and organizational skills that will assist her in a wide variety of professions that require good communication and critical thinking skills. Whether she works in business, government, education, or whatever. Can one develop those same skills on their own or in the workplace? Sure. But you often don't get the chance because so many entry level jobs in business, government, etc. expect you to have some college degree as a prerequisite. Is that fair? Probably not. Is it efficient from the point of view of the employer? Sure. It is an easy way to initially screen applicants.

Do a lot of women (and men) take their college degrees and do something completely different or become homemakers? Sure. But how many women and men who choose to do that regret having spent time in college? Not many I suspect. I know plenty of stay-home moms who went to college. But I don't know any who say "man, I wish I never went to college but instead started my family at age 18."

[JohnH]

I guess philosophy majors aren’t well rounded then, because the ones I know have a hard time finding good jobs, and a hard time learning new, important job skills.

Many people wish they had started their family earlier. I know of one who is an M.D. who went to an Ivy League and has a very successful and prestigious career, despite not being from an “elite” family at all. However by the time they were ready to have a family it was too late. Women have difficult having children in their 40s, fertility actually starts to really decline in the 30s.

[Robert]

Interesting. Seems college degrees do not bring a lot of good things. Not concerned about being against trump, but for so many progressive issues.

[Ken]

I guess philosophy majors aren’t well rounded then, because the ones I know have a hard time finding good jobs, and a hard time learning new, important job skills.

Many people wish they had started their family earlier. I know of one who is an M.D. who went to an Ivy League and has a very successful and prestigious career, despite not being from an “elite” family at all. However by the time they were ready to have a family it was too late. Women have difficult having children in their 40s, fertility actually starts to really decline in the 30s.

But does your Ivy League doctor friend regret having attended college?

[JohnH]

I guess philosophy majors aren’t well rounded then, because the ones I know have a hard time finding good jobs, and a hard time learning new, important job skills.

Many people wish they had started their family earlier. I know of one who is an M.D. who went to an Ivy League and has a very successful and prestigious career, despite not being from an “elite” family at all. However by the time they were ready to have a family it was too late. Women have difficult having children in their 40s, fertility actually starts to really decline in the 30s.

But does your Ivy League doctor friend regret having attended college?

Regrets abound as people age, particularly in retirement years: no children to take care of you, as you watch siblings and cousins surrounded by children and grandchildren. Your own parents are dead and gone.

But, hey, at least you got a college degree!

*for those who didn’t catch it, this is sardonic.

[Ken]

I guess philosophy majors aren’t well rounded then, because the ones I know have a hard time finding good jobs, and a hard time learning new, important job skills.

Many people wish they had started their family earlier. I know of one who is an M.D. who went to an Ivy League and has a very successful and prestigious career, despite not being from an “elite” family at all. However by the time they were ready to have a family it was too late. Women have difficult having children in their 40s, fertility actually starts to really decline in the 30s.

But does your Ivy League doctor friend regret having attended college?

Regrets abound as people age, particularly in retirement years: no children to take care of you, as you watch siblings and cousins surrounded by children and grandchildren. Your own parents are dead and gone.

But, hey, at least you got a college degree!

*for those who didn’t catch it, this is sardonic.

So I'm guessing the answer you chose not to give is that: No, your Ivy League educated doctor friend doesn't actually regret going to college. And doesn't actually wish that he/she entered the blue collar workforce at age 18 and started to have babies.