Gaza - Post Ceasefire 2025

[HondurasKeiser]

This helps me understand what Hamas's goals seem to be.


https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas ... 7055c238eb

I think Hamas’ goals have been quite explicit for quite a while. What’s difficult to understand are the Hamas apologists and supporters around the rest of the world.

Just to be clear, I have no sympathy for Hamas, not then, not now, not ever.

Nor do I think anyone here does. I was generalizing out to broader society.

[HondurasKeiser]

I think Hamas’ goals have been quite explicit for quite a while. What’s difficult to understand are the Hamas apologists and supporters around the rest of the world.

Their goal is a free Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders. It seems like a just goal to me.

However, I can never justify violence, even though Israel has killed many more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.

I thinks that's an anodyne and white-washed view of Hamas's goals. Something closer to the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Jews seems to be their explicit goals.

[R7ehr]

1. Would Hamas mission be accomplished if the Palestinians had their own state based on 1967 borders?
2. Would Hamas mission be accomplished if the Jews were thriving, but dispersed into other existing countries, with no country of their own?
3. Would Hamas mission be accomplished if they didn't have their own "Palestine" nation, but the land there was divided between Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Lebanon?
4. Would Hamas mission be accomplished if every Jew on earth was killed?

My impression is that only number 4 would be suitable for Hamas. And as such, all these other things are merely talking points.

[JimFoxvog]

Well, I'd expect fulfilling number one would bring peace. They would continue to push for having a secular state with equal rights for people regardless of ethnicity or religion and the right of return*. So many people have had their houses and land stolen before 1967.

*

The Palestinian right of return is the political position or principle that Palestinian refugees, both first-generation refugees and their descendants, have a right to return and a right to the property they themselves or their forebears left behind or were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories during the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and the 1967 Six-Day War. Wikipedia

[HondurasKeiser]

Well, I'd expect fulfilling number one would bring peace. They would continue to push for having a secular state with equal rights for people regardless of ethnicity or religion and the right of return*. So many people have had their houses and land stolen before 1967.

*

The Palestinian right of return is the political position or principle that Palestinian refugees, both first-generation refugees and their descendants, have a right to return and a right to the property they themselves or their forebears left behind or were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories during the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and the 1967 Six-Day War. Wikipedia

What fantasy world are you living in? Hamas wants a peaceful secular state, side-by-side with Israel? People that can kill kidnapped babies with their bare hands are not peaceful secularists, they’re a satanic, nihilist death-cult.

[JohnL]

Well, I'd expect fulfilling number one would bring peace. They would continue to push for having a secular state with equal rights for people regardless of ethnicity or religion and the right of return*. So many people have had their houses and land stolen before 1967.

*

The Palestinian right of return is the political position or principle that Palestinian refugees, both first-generation refugees and their descendants, have a right to return and a right to the property they themselves or their forebears left behind or were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories during the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and the 1967 Six-Day War. Wikipedia

77 years ago; 58 years ago. This does not justify the murder of hostages, infants, and children. This does not justify the attack in October 2023. If you're going to go back that many years why not go all the way back to the expulsion from the Garden of Eden and yell at God for kicking out Adam and Eve?

[JimFoxvog]

77 years ago; 58 years ago. This does not justify the murder of hostages, infants, and children. This does not justify the attack in October 2023.

Of course not. Nor does the fact that Israel murdered many times more every year since then. Murder, by terrorist groups or official acts of the military, is never justified.

I do not see it as a moral position to defend the more powerful and effective murdering organization.

[JohnL]

77 years ago; 58 years ago. This does not justify the murder of hostages, infants, and children. This does not justify the attack in October 2023.

Of course not. Nor does the fact that Israel murdered many times more every year since then. Murder, by terrorist groups or official acts of the military, is never justified.

I do not see it as a moral position to defend the more powerful and effective murdering organization.

Then taking sides regardless of the perps is ridiculous in my pov. Deal with the most immediate atrocity and be done with it. Rehashing the past leads to bitterness.

[mike]

[Ernie]

I concur with this comment in the X post.

Howie Hain

It still just bothers me, deeply, that negotiating for bodies is even taking place. Sit with that for a minute.