Mennonite Measles in Texas

[JohnH]

As I understand it was developed with cell lines that originated from a fetus. Are you suggesting the vaccine contains actual cells from a fetus?

Living tissue torn from an aborted baby's body is part of an aborted baby.

By the way it's a "baby" not a "fetus".

[Soloist]

I'm curious how you understand this. As I understand it was developed with cell lines that originated from a fetus. Are you suggesting the vaccine contains actual cells from a fetus?

It’s depends on how you define the question. Effectively what they did was mass produced the virus on the fetal cell line. If you recall from biology viruses generally produce by killing the cell budding off one by one until it’s dead or bursting the cell. Retrograde viruses are different, but that’s not applicable here (think HIV)
So there are fragments of the cell leftover in this virus slurry they attempt to purify it and remove it. I have read various reports that DNA levels remaining are higher than they should be by the standards. This is unconfirmed science. There should be no actual fetal cells intact in any vaccine.
My objection is the process of using a baby they killed to save other babies. Back when this first started they tried to quell the concerns by saying we’d never have to do it again that it would produce tons literally of cells. This goes into what is known as the Hayflick limit. Since the first two cell lines there have been hundreds of attempts to make more and quite a few that are now used in research worldwide. The hayflick limit effectively it reproduce a maximum of 52 times? I would have to look it up to verify the number. I’m feverish in bed right now.
And they collected about 1 billion cells. WI-38 They messed up and lost considerable volume, but it’s still amounted quite a bit.
Within the last 15 years or so, there has been a steady push to develop a new cell line because we’re starting to get to the point where the replication is not economical anymore. It’s not that we’ve reached the limit, but it’s increasing the cost of the product. More cells are dying during replication and replication is taking longer.
One very common argument is that these are immortal cell lines and that’s completely not true. There are several professional resources arguing this that are factually wrong.
We do have immortal cells that can replicate for all intents and purposes endlessly, but they have been mutated by a virus or cancer, and generally considered not suitable for vaccine production. HEK 293 has been mutated by a virus. I think the logic is that they were only taking the DNA/RNA (for Covid) so it didn’t matter. The DNA/RNA Was replicated in E. coli and then processed into a vaccine.
I believe that sacrificing life to save life should only be done by personal choice and a baby is unable to make that choice. This is what drives my convictions. We are killing innocent to prolong life.
Perhaps it sounds scientifically different, but it’s effectively the same logic as throwing someone in volcano to stop the god from destroying the island. I’m sure sometimes they were willing to be sacrificed, but sometimes they weren’t.

[JimFoxvog]

I believe that sacrificing life to save life should only be done by personal choice and a baby is unable to make that choice. This is what drives my convictions. We are killing innocent to prolong life.

Was prolonging life the reason the child was killed? I would oppose an abortion committed for that purpose.

Some abortions are of non-viable fetuses, children that could not have survived long after birth (if that long). If I were the parent of a non-viable child, I would want to donate its tissues for medical use so the child would not have lived and died in vain.

If they started cell lines from spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) that would help meet my and many other's ethical qualms. And it seems there are other options.

[Soloist]

Was prolonging life the reason the child was killed? I would oppose an abortion committed for that purpose.

Some abortions are of non-viable fetuses, children that could not have survived long after birth (if that long). If I were the parent of a non-viable child, I would want to donate its tissues for medical use so the child would not have lived and died in vain.

If they started cell lines from spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) that would help meet my and many other's ethical qualms. And it seems there are other options.

I understand what you’re saying, but that kind of misses the point. Are you comfortable with serial killers that are executed having their organs used and their tissue?
I could show you things where the baby suffers immensely to collect cells… They need the thymus tissue unaffected by digoxin.
You won’t really see much about this certainly not on public basis, but I have seen the research and if you really wanted to see it, I’d show it to you but it’s a bunch of emails released by a freedom of information request About federal funding.
They could not use it from miscarriages because they don’t know why, and it would risk contaminated cells. They could, however, be doing this from cord blood and it would be perfectly ethical.

Some abortions are of non-viable fetuses, children that could not have survived long after birth (if that long). If I were the parent of a non-viable child, I would want to donate its tissues for medical use so the child would not have lived and died in vain.

Again, the tissue would not be considered useful because it would be a risk and liability. They want uncomplicated elective abortion.
I’m not really faulting the parent for choosing to donate the tissue. I’m certainly faulting them for having the abortion. But my stance is clear this is too widespread and medicine and honestly, the more I dig the worse it looks. I just found out it’s used in a lot of laboratory testing for diseases as well…

[Ken]

Soloist, I respect your position but I also notice the middle M of the MMR vaccine used to be a significant cause of fetal cell damage producing significant numbers of children born blind and mentally handicapped. I suspect we are going to see this make a comeback.

And if they would offer us vaccines made without aborted babies, I would gladly have them administered to my children.

Your move!

My move is to vaccinate my children. What you do is your own business.

In any event, I read the article in the original post about all the unvaccinated Mennonites in Gaines County TX coming down with measles. Not one of them cited stem cell research as the reason they opposed vaccines. To the extent that they can even articulate a reason, it just seems to just be general anti-vax sentiment unconnected to any issue of science.

[Soloist]

My move is to vaccinate my children. What you do is your own business.

In any event, I read the article in the original post about all the unvaccinated Mennonites in Gaines County TX coming down with measles. Not one of them cited stem cell research as the reason they opposed vaccines. To the extent that they can even articulate a reason, it just seems to just be general anti-vax sentiment unconnected to any issue of science.

I agree, but I didn’t exactly see a lot of comments from the old order group there. We don’t really know what their reason is.

I’m really concerned about this spreading through the communities frustrated that I can’t get an ethical vaccine because there’s no way I can get to Canada or Mexico for who knows how long.

[ken_sylvania]

Is Mennonite Measles the same thing as German Measles?

[Szdfan]

Is Mennonite Measles the same thing as German Measles?

Yes, except that the virus wears a microscopic headcovering.

[R7ehr]

Is Mennonite Measles the same thing as German Measles?

Yes, except that the virus wears a microscopic headcovering.

But the conservative Mennonite Measles actually wear pretty large coverings.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm curious how you understand this. As I understand it was developed with cell lines that originated from a fetus. Are you suggesting the vaccine contains actual cells from a fetus?

It’s depends on how you define the question. Effectively what they did was mass produced the virus on the fetal cell line. If you recall from biology viruses generally produce by killing the cell budding off one by one until it’s dead or bursting the cell. Retrograde viruses are different, but that’s not applicable here (think HIV)
So there are fragments of the cell leftover in this virus slurry they attempt to purify it and remove it. I have read various reports that DNA levels remaining are higher than they should be by the standards. This is unconfirmed science. There should be no actual fetal cells intact in any vaccine.
My objection is the process of using a baby they killed to save other babies. Back when this first started they tried to quell the concerns by saying we’d never have to do it again that it would produce tons literally of cells. This goes into what is known as the Hayflick limit. Since the first two cell lines there have been hundreds of attempts to make more and quite a few that are now used in research worldwide. The hayflick limit effectively it reproduce a maximum of 52 times? I would have to look it up to verify the number. I’m feverish in bed right now.
And they collected about 1 billion cells. WI-38 They messed up and lost considerable volume, but it’s still amounted quite a bit.
Within the last 15 years or so, there has been a steady push to develop a new cell line because we’re starting to get to the point where the replication is not economical anymore. It’s not that we’ve reached the limit, but it’s increasing the cost of the product. More cells are dying during replication and replication is taking longer.
One very common argument is that these are immortal cell lines and that’s completely not true. There are several professional resources arguing this that are factually wrong.
We do have immortal cells that can replicate for all intents and purposes endlessly, but they have been mutated by a virus or cancer, and generally considered not suitable for vaccine production. HEK 293 has been mutated by a virus. I think the logic is that they were only taking the DNA/RNA (for Covid) so it didn’t matter. The DNA/RNA Was replicated in E. coli and then processed into a vaccine.
I believe that sacrificing life to save life should only be done by personal choice and a baby is unable to make that choice. This is what drives my convictions. We are killing innocent to prolong life.
Perhaps it sounds scientifically different, but it’s effectively the same logic as throwing someone in volcano to stop the god from destroying the island. I’m sure sometimes they were willing to be sacrificed, but sometimes they weren’t.

There will be no more need for new fetal cell lines. It is now possible to "reprogram" somatic cells to act like stem cells. There is still much safety testing to be done, but barring any problems, should be available soon.

This abortion was NOT to create a vaccine, it was an elective abortion done for what is commonly called "social reasons." Had the tissue not been used, it would have gone to the incinerator. Get your facts straight. The "Children of God for Life" is simply not a good source for the facts. It is an advocacy group. So better to throw away the tissue? The bell cannot be unsung. Measles is nothing to trifle with.