Anabaptist Ordinations By Lot

[Judas Maccabeus]

I have been debating how to navigate between factual response and avoiding negativity.

EPMC uses the lot for the actual selection from among those nominated.
But the significant effort to “weed out unsatisfactory” nominees does not for me align with their claim “It’s all God’will via the lot.”
They trust God but only after they put up the guardrails.

So, does Eastern use the lot. I could as easily say “yes” or “no”.

Guardrails need to be in place, however. We had a person in our membership that began to state that Jesus was not fully God and fully man, and was a created being, who came into existence after creation. He became quite aggressive at pushing this position, I have a whole folder full of his "tracts." Eventually he had to resign, to avoid being removed from membership.

What would have happened IF we had an ordination during this period and he was nominated? Do we move a heretic forward into the lot?

Guardrails must exist. What you may actually be opposed to is how they were implemented.

[joshuabgood]

I have been debating how to navigate between factual response and avoiding negativity.

EPMC uses the lot for the actual selection from among those nominated.
But the significant effort to “weed out unsatisfactory” nominees does not for me align with their claim “It’s all God’will via the lot.”
They trust God but only after they put up the guardrails.

So, does Eastern use the lot. I could as easily say “yes” or “no”.

Guardrails need to be in place, however. We had a person in our membership that began to state that Jesus was not fully God and fully man, and was a created being, who came into existence after creation. He became quite aggressive at pushing this position, I have a whole folder full of his "tracts." Eventually he had to resign, to avoid being removed from membership.

What would have happened IF we had an ordination during this period and he was nominated? Do we move a heretic forward into the lot?

Guardrails must exist. What you may actually be opposed to is how they were implemented.

If God is in the lot, couldn't he easily weed out the heretic?

[R7ehr]

The lot isn’t used to divide the righteous from the heretic.
It is used to choose between the many righteous for the few jobs/offices. If you have 10 qualified men, and 1 is needed, instead of a contentious argument or campaign, use the lot and cause contention to cease.

People have a role to play here, don’t forfeit your responsibility, then be mad at God for not doing your job.

[mike]

The lot isn’t used to divide the righteous from the heretic.
It is used to choose between the many righteous for the few jobs/offices. If you have 10 qualified men, and 1 is needed, instead of a contentious argument or campaign, use the lot and cause contention to cease.

People have a role to play here, don’t forfeit your responsibility, then be mad at God for not doing your job.

That's the ideal, but there's always the possibility you have a church member (or two, or three) who disagree with church leadership about somebody being qualified. Then what?

[ken_sylvania]

The lot isn’t used to divide the righteous from the heretic.
It is used to choose between the many righteous for the few jobs/offices. If you have 10 qualified men, and 1 is needed, instead of a contentious argument or campaign, use the lot and cause contention to cease.

People have a role to play here, don’t forfeit your responsibility, then be mad at God for not doing your job.

That's the ideal, but there's always the possibility you have a church member (or two, or three) who disagree with church leadership about somebody being qualified. Then what?

How is that handled in your store when the stockers and clerks disagree with you about whether a certain person is qualified to be store manager?

[Ernie]

I have been debating how to navigate between factual response and avoiding negativity.

EPMC uses the lot for the actual selection from among those nominated.
But the significant effort to “weed out unsatisfactory” nominees does not for me align with their claim “It’s all God’will via the lot.”
They trust God but only after they put up the guardrails.

So, does Eastern use the lot. I could as easily say “yes” or “no”.

The lot isn’t used to divide the righteous from the heretic.
It is used to choose between the many righteous for the few jobs/offices. If you have 10 qualified men, and 1 is needed, instead of a contentious argument or campaign, use the lot and cause contention to cease.

People have a role to play here, don’t forfeit your responsibility, then be mad at God for not doing your job.

That's the ideal, but there's always the possibility you have a church member (or two, or three) who disagree with church leadership about somebody being qualified. Then what?

This is a thread to talk about how it is done. As OJ said on the previous page anything beyond this can be taken up in a new thread. Or a person can revive a thread on this topic from an earlier era.

I have never heard any of any Amish or Mennonite pastors or group (the two Anabaptist groups that use the lot) indicate that the lot is to be used to choose one among a number of qualified persons. That seems to be the case in Acts 1 and is what Amish and Mennonites refer to as the basis for their practice. I even heard a Mennonite bishop once say that the person selected by lot is not necessarily the most qualified in the group, but the one the Lord has appointed for this particular time and place.
I've seen enough unqualified men get ordained over the years (maybe as high as 25%) that I agree with RZehr that if a church forfeit's its responsibility, it is not God's fault.

To Mike's question, if you believe that bishops/elders have authority, and that the church shouldn't run like a democracy, then you need to be ok with their word counting more than the rest of the church. Those who disagree, well, they need to deal with it (which has been me on occasion).

I don't think we should use the lot to determine whether the one or two or three is right or wrong.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The lot isn’t used to divide the righteous from the heretic.
It is used to choose between the many righteous for the few jobs/offices. If you have 10 qualified men, and 1 is needed, instead of a contentious argument or campaign, use the lot and cause contention to cease.

People have a role to play here, don’t forfeit your responsibility, then be mad at God for not doing your job.

That's the ideal, but there's always the possibility you have a church member (or two, or three) who disagree with church leadership about somebody being qualified. Then what?

They should communicate their discomfort between the time the nominations are made, and the time the candidates are interviewed. That would be surely taken into consideration. However, it would need be a reason that could be reasonably explained to a bishop. Of note, we don't attempt to limit ordination to those who are perfect in every way, otherwise we would have no candidates at all.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I have never heard any of any Amish or Mennonite pastors or group (the two Anabaptist groups that use the lot) indicate that the lot is to be used to choose one among a number of qualified persons. That seems to be the case in Acts 1 and is what Amish and Mennonites refer to as the basis for their practice. I even heard a Mennonite bishop once say that the person selected by lot is not necessarily the most qualified in the group, but the one the Lord has appointed for this particular time and place.

That is exactly how it was explained to me. All must meet the Biblical qualifications for the office. The lot chooses WHICH qualified man is chosen. "Best" or "Most qualified" is not the criteria for being in the lot. Biblically qualified is.

[ken_sylvania]

I have never heard any of any Amish or Mennonite pastors or group (the two Anabaptist groups that use the lot) indicate that the lot is to be used to choose one among a number of qualified persons. That seems to be the case in Acts 1 and is what Amish and Mennonites refer to as the basis for their practice. I even heard a Mennonite bishop once say that the person selected by lot is not necessarily the most qualified in the group, but the one the Lord has appointed for this particular time and place.
I've seen enough unqualified men get ordained over the years (maybe as high as 25%) that I agree with RZehr that if a church forfeit's its responsibility, it is not God's fault.

To Mike's question, if you believe that bishops/elders have authority, and that the church shouldn't run like a democracy, then you need to be ok with their word counting more than the rest of the church. Those who disagree, well, they need to deal with it (which has been me on occasion).

I don't think we should use the lot to determine whether the one or two or three is right or wrong.

Is the underlined what you actually intended to write?

[Ernie]

I have never heard any of any Amish or Mennonite pastors or group (the two Anabaptist groups that use the lot) indicate that the lot is to be used to choose one among a number of qualified persons. That seems to be the case in Acts 1 and is what Amish and Mennonites refer to as the basis for their practice. I even heard a Mennonite bishop once say that the person selected by lot is not necessarily the most qualified in the group, but the one the Lord has appointed for this particular time and place.
I've seen enough unqualified men get ordained over the years (maybe as high as 25%) that I agree with RZehr that if a church forfeit's its responsibility, it is not God's fault.

To Mike's question, if you believe that bishops/elders have authority, and that the church shouldn't run like a democracy, then you need to be ok with their word counting more than the rest of the church. Those who disagree, well, they need to deal with it (which has been me on occasion).

I don't think we should use the lot to determine whether the one or two or three is right or wrong.

Is the underlined what you actually intended to write?

Sorry, no!
What I meant to say...
I have never heard any of any Amish or Mennonite pastors or group (the two Anabaptist groups that use the lot) indicate that the lot is to be used for something other than choosing among a number of qualified persons.