What are your thoughts on alternatives to military service if drafted?

[mike]

Reading some history of Amish & Mennonites during the civil war. I was interested to see the development of different alternatives to participation in the conflict. The question of the thread is to see what your opinions are on some of the alternatives that existed then, and some of which may continue to exist today. The option of choosing military service itself is also an option.

I was disappointed to learn how many Amish and Mennonite boys and men did choose to fight in the conflict, mostly for the North. Not that that was the majority response; the vast majority of Anabaptists were nonresistant, to the anger of their neighbors in some parts of the country. In other parts of the country, Pennsylvania in particular, politicians courted the vote of the Anabaptists and were more likely to grant them conscientious objector status.

The poll options assume the listed options to be available, although I don't think that hiring a substitute would be an option in modern times. I included it because it was an option in some instances during the Civil War. I'm allowing up to 2 options because a person could conceivably be willing to do one or both of the first two options.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

The only option close for me would be "pay a fine".

But these options are not listed:

* I would go be imprisoned to avoid military service.

* I would do work for the military effort (i.e. in a munitions factory) to avoid military service.

* I would do alternative service that did not directly contribute to military violence (i.e. agricultural labor camp) to avoid military service.

These options seem the most likely to me, historically and globally. They should be included. I would do prison or work in labor camps, as long as I am not producing munitions.

[mike]

The only option close for me would be "pay a fine".

But these options are not listed:

* I would go be imprisoned to avoid military service.

* I would do work for the military effort (i.e. in a munitions factory) to avoid military service.

* I would do alternative service that did not directly contribute to military violence (i.e. agricultural labor camp) to avoid military service.

These options seem the most likely to me, historically and globally. They should be included. I would do prison or work in labor camps, as long as I am not producing munitions.

Thanks. I expanded the poll options. Unfortunately, this reset the poll, so everyone who already voted will have to vote again.

[ohio jones]

The poll options assume the listed options to be available, although I don't think that hiring a substitute would be an option in modern times.

Paying income taxes (which were not around during the Civil War) seems to me like the modern equivalent of hiring a substitute, though more indirect since the taxes are used for multiple purposes.

[mike]

The poll options assume the listed options to be available, although I don't think that hiring a substitute would be an option in modern times.

Paying income taxes (which were not around during the Civil War) seems to me like the modern equivalent of hiring a substitute, though more indirect since the taxes are used for multiple purposes.

To what extent does doing something indirectly affect the ethics of a thing? It does seem to make a difference. Looking up a neighbor and asking if he would serve in the military as a substitute for $25,000 seems like an entirely different thing than paying one's income taxes, part of which is used for military.

[joshuabgood]

The Quakers, in the Civil War refused to pay the fine...as that money went straight to the war chest and wasn't a generic tax. In fact, they were called commutation fees, and many poor people hated them because the rich could afford not to go while the poor had to go. I don't think I would pay a commutation fee to support the war. I also wouldn't help in noncombative military offices - ie making munitions - however, I would I think work as a medic, like Desmond Doss, in the army.

[mike]

The Quakers, in the Civil War refused to pay the fine...as that money went straight to the war chest and wasn't a generic tax. In fact, they were called commutation fees, and many poor people hated them because the rich could afford not to go while the poor had to go. I don't think I would pay a commutation fee to support the war. I also wouldn't help in noncombative military offices - ie making munitions - however, I would I think work as a medic, like Desmond Doss, in the army.

I thought medics were usually armed and could be called on to fight.

There was the man who served in the German army as an engineer (forced) and who carried a dummy wooden gun that would have gotten him shot if found out. Documented in a great book, A Thousand Shall Fall.

[joshuabgood]

The Quakers, in the Civil War refused to pay the fine...as that money went straight to the war chest and wasn't a generic tax. In fact, they were called commutation fees, and many poor people hated them because the rich could afford not to go while the poor had to go. I don't think I would pay a commutation fee to support the war. I also wouldn't help in noncombative military offices - ie making munitions - however, I would I think work as a medic, like Desmond Doss, in the army.

I thought medics were usually armed and could be called on to fight.

There was the man who served in the German army as an engineer (forced) and who carried a dummy wooden gun that would have gotten him shot if found out. Documented in a great book, A Thousand Shall Fall.

Yeah...I think you are right. Now that I remember it, Desmond refused to carry a rifle which landed him with military prison and other penalties for awhile until they finally accepted it. He then worked as a medic but without any weapons...famously risking his life over and over again on Hacksaw Ridge saving the lives of 75 men at Okinawa when the rest of the army left them to die. So I think that is what I would be willing to do...work in a combat zone, without a weapon, to save lives. (Not saying I am wanting to...)

They wanted him to carry one even if he didn't use it...and he told them he didn't want one because he was afraid in the heat of the moment he might use it.

[mike]

The Quakers, in the Civil War refused to pay the fine...as that money went straight to the war chest and wasn't a generic tax. In fact, they were called commutation fees, and many poor people hated them because the rich could afford not to go while the poor had to go. I don't think I would pay a commutation fee to support the war. I also wouldn't help in noncombative military offices - ie making munitions - however, I would I think work as a medic, like Desmond Doss, in the army.

I thought medics were usually armed and could be called on to fight.

There was the man who served in the German army as an engineer (forced) and who carried a dummy wooden gun that would have gotten him shot if found out. Documented in a great book, A Thousand Shall Fall.

Yeah...I think you are right. Now that I remember it, Desmond refused to carry a rifle which landed him with military prison and other penalties for awhile until they finally accepted it. He then worked as a medic but without any weapons...famously risking his life over and over again on Hacksaw Ridge saving the lives of many men. So I think that is what I would be willing to do...work in a combat zone, without a weapon, to save lives. (Not saying I am wanting to...)

I don't think a military would really want people in combat who can't be relied on to do their jobs, so I think it is unlikely that nonresistant/pacifist people would be forced into combat roles these days. But if it happens, I think God granted some people like Doss and others special grace to find a way to serve God and people in bad situations without violating their convictions, and that could happen again.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Desmond Doss came to my mind as well when I read "noncombatant role". Unfortunately, I think his situation is about the only one I'd accept. There are a ton of supportive roles in the military these days. It's a huge military-industrial complex. No offence to Doss (I really admire him), but I would probably just go to the field through the Red Cross or some other organization.