Daniel Penny

[ken_sylvania]

What are the chances Penny loses the civil suit?

https://gothamist.com/news/attention-tu ... hold-trial

100% he loses.
Question is by how much. Does he just lose the time, money, and mental stress of going through the trial? Or does he have to pay damages also?

[mike]

What are the chances Penny loses the civil suit?

https://gothamist.com/news/attention-tu ... hold-trial

100% he loses.
Question is by how much. Does he just lose the time, money, and mental stress of going through the trial? Or does he have to pay damages also?

Say they get him for a few million that he doesn’t have. How does that work? Wages garnished the rest of his life?

[Robert]

I don't think Penny intended to kill Neely, but too many people are dying due to chokeholds - Neely, George Floyd, Eric Garner, Elijah McClain, Manual Ellis ... at the very least, people who teach these chokeholds need to be teaching people how to avoid killing others.

This is off topic, so I will just say one thing. George Floyd did not die from a choke hold. This is not accurate information. He died from a drug overdose. The autopsy reveals this. I do not know who the others are you listed. It may be accurate in their cases.

I have had to physically restrain my nephew before. It is not a fun thing. The issue is there are too many people out o control that need to be restrained. The US society is allowing seriously ill people to aggressively assault others. I am not surprised that some are physically defending themselves and others.

I would not have done what Penny did. I can not judge him for his actions since I see it as a reaction to an uncontrolled drug addict that was aggressively assaulting others. He was about to get physical as he had done in the past. I suspect many on the subway had encountered him before and knew his tendency to get violent.

For me, it feels like we are blaming the victim instead of blaming the out of control drug addict that was assaulting others. Even Mayor Eric Adams has shared support for Penny. Some are starting to see it.

[JohnL]

This is off topic, so I will just say one thing. George Floyd did not die from a choke hold. This is not accurate information. He died from a drug overdose. The autopsy reveals this. I do not know who the others are you listed. It may be accurate in their cases.

I have had to physically restrain my nephew before. It is not a fun thing. The issue is there are too many people out o control that need to be restrained. The US society is allowing seriously ill people to aggressively assault others. I am not surprised that some are physically defending themselves and others.

I would not have done what Penny did. I can not judge him for his actions since I see it as a reaction to an uncontrolled drug addict that was aggressively assaulting others. He was about to get physical as he had done in the past. I suspect many on the subway had encountered him before and knew his tendency to get violent.

For me, it feels like we are blaming the victim instead of blaming the out of control drug addict that was assaulting others. Even Mayor Eric Adams has shared support for Penny. Some are starting to see it.

My thoughts exactly. I've had to help subdue an out of control grown male who was whaling on his wife at Walmart. He was clearly high on something too. Took 4 of us men to pin him and hold him until the cops came. One guy used a choke hold so this man wouldn't throw us off and go after his wife again. That choke hold was the only thing that made him stop resisting.

[HondurasKeiser]

If Neely had a trial, the jury would have concluded the obvious: Yelling is not violence. Being on drugs is not violence. Instead of getting a trial, Neely was killed. Penny got a trial.

A chokehold is, in fact, violence. And killing is, in fact, killing. Doing that because you think someone might be trying to start a fight probably isn't the best move.

#1 - If Neely had had a trial, the jury could very well have concluded the obvious: that Neely was guilty of the crime of menacing, which falls under the category of assault in New York. Yelling is violence. Being on drugs often causes a person to behave violently.

I don't think this is accurate. Yelling is clearly "disorderly conduct" in New York City:

https://newyork.public.law/laws/n.y._pe ... ion_240.20

In New York, disorderly conduct is classified as a violation, which is less severe than a misdemeanor.

There is a crime called "menacing", which has various degrees, like some other violent crimes. In NYC, here are the definitions:

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/P3THA120

Yelling does not qualify. Third degree menacing and second degree menacing are both misdemeanors. First degree menacing involves people who menace police officers.

Leaving people with the impression that you're about to physically harm them is certainly more than disorderly conduct.

[temporal1]

My thoughts exactly.

I've had to help subdue an out of control grown male who was whaling on his wife at Walmart.
He was clearly high on something too. Took 4 of us men to pin him and hold him until the cops came. One guy used a choke hold so this man wouldn't throw us off and go after his wife again. That choke hold was the only thing that made him stop resisting.

So important.
i witnessed a shocking scene as a young child, maybe 5 years old. my sibs+i were with our mother in a shoe repair shop, it was warm and sunny. it was a small shop with large windows facing the street. as we were waiting, i saw a car park next door, i guess in front of a bar. 3 grown men were trying to restrain 1 (probably drunken and very angry man) in the back seat of the car. they couldn’t even keep the car doors shut. they tried with all their might. he was fighting with such strength, anger, alcohol, adrenaline combined. it was awful. he broke free and went into the bar. i couldn’t see the bar. i saw him get away and run into the place next door.

our mother tried but couldn’t keep all 3 of us from looking.

in a short time, i saw him staggering out, his head bleeding profusely, i presume he’d been hit over the head with a glass bottle.
the men were all wearing white shirts, that was the norm then. bright red blood everywhere. shirts soaked with blood. he was staggering, they helped him into the car and left. there was a nearby hospital.

it’s like trying to restrain a wild animal. if you let go, you risk injury or death.

i’ve had enough tussles with my sibs and even my children to understand the dynamic.
anger, alone, increases strength - and all around danger. so does fear. fear, alone, can cause panic, and danger.

in DP’s case, he describes himself as 6’2”, that JN was taller, possibly heftier.
DP AND others who assisted him were not dealing with an errant child. lives were at risk.

life can be rough. children need their parents.

[Judas Maccabeus]

What are the chances Penny loses the civil suit?

https://gothamist.com/news/attention-tu ... hold-trial

100% he loses.
Question is by how much. Does he just lose the time, money, and mental stress of going through the trial? Or does he have to pay damages also?

Now if we had a “loser pays” system like the UK, no such suit would be brought.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I don't think Penny intended to kill Neely, but too many people are dying due to chokeholds - Neely, George Floyd, Eric Garner, Elijah McClain, Manual Ellis ... at the very least, people who teach these chokeholds need to be teaching people how to avoid killing others.

This is off topic, so I will just say one thing. George Floyd did not die from a choke hold. This is not accurate information. He died from a drug overdose. The autopsy reveals this. I do not know who the others are you listed. It may be accurate in their cases.

I have had to physically restrain my nephew before. It is not a fun thing. The issue is there are too many people out o control that need to be restrained. The US society is allowing seriously ill people to aggressively assault others. I am not surprised that some are physically defending themselves and others.

I would not have done what Penny did. I can not judge him for his actions since I see it as a reaction to an uncontrolled drug addict that was aggressively assaulting others. He was about to get physical as he had done in the past. I suspect many on the subway had encountered him before and knew his tendency to get violent.

For me, it feels like we are blaming the victim instead of blaming the out of control drug addict that was assaulting others. Even Mayor Eric Adams has shared support for Penny. Some are starting to see it.

I was treating it patient from one of the state hospitals when, before I had even begun, hopped up and started choking me. The two aids who were with him were unable to get him to release his hold. My partner, hearing the commotion, ran into my suite saw the patient, and shouted “if you don’t let him go, I’ll kill you.” Now my partner was black, 6’5””, 310 lbs. and played offensive line at a division 1 school, quit after 2 years because football was a dead end. Guy let me go and quietly laid down. I asked my partner if he actually would have done violence, answer “no, but I know how to play scary black man, I figured I could intimidate him without even touching him.” AIDS thanked him. I owe him my life.

[JohnL]

I was treating it patient from one of the state hospitals when, before I had even begun, hopped up and started choking me. The two aids who were with him were unable to get him to release his hold. My partner, hearing the commotion, ran into my suite saw the patient, and shouted “if you don’t let him go, I’ll kill you.” Now my partner was black, 6’5””, 310 lbs. and played offensive line at a division 1 school, quit after 2 years because football was a dead end. Guy let me go and quietly laid down. I asked my partner if he actually would have done violence, answer “no, but I know how to play scary black man, I figured I could intimidate him without even touching him.” AIDS thanked him. I owe him my life.

Love this story. Your partner is resourceful.

[Bootstrap]

I would not have done what Penny did. I can not judge him for his actions since I see it as a reaction to an uncontrolled drug addict that was aggressively assaulting others. He was about to get physical as he had done in the past. I suspect many on the subway had encountered him before and knew his tendency to get violent.

For me, it feels like we are blaming the victim instead of blaming the out of control drug addict that was assaulting others. Even Mayor Eric Adams has shared support for Penny. Some are starting to see it.

Everybody wants to be the victim. If we are going to use that word, I think the unarmed person who was killed, while not doing anything violent, is more of a victim than the person who killed him, had a trial with a jury of his peers, and was acquitted.

I do not believe that Penny is guilty of a crime, though I would feel differently if he were working as law enforcement and had the necessary training. I was a wrestler in high school, and I have physically restrained people to prevent violence. I have never killed anyone. I have never restrained anyone who was not an active threat at the time. If I received training in something like a chokehold, I would want to know how to avoid killing anyone. I don't think Penny had extensive training.

But I also believe that Neely was killed. And that killing homeless people or crazy people is bad. I also believe Neely was not threatening anyone. To me, that makes Neely a victim.

In some countries, people can just go around shooting homeless people with impunity. All killing is, in fact, killing. Every life matters. I think it's important to remember that. I continue to have real difficulty with the claim that Penny did not kill Neely. That feels like a very 1984 approach to words - "Killing is not killing".