Living with different views on voting

[ken_sylvania]

Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen Daniel 4:17 mentioned yet.

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. 

It is Old Testament but most non-voting groups I have been around would point to it as a reason or the primary reason not to vote. The expressed reasoning is something like "If God sets up who he wants I can trust His power, I don't need to be involved. Also, if I vote I run the risk of voting against the one God intends."

I suspect some people who do vote interpret this logic as bordering on or crossing into fatalism. Those who don't vote see it as a matter of faith that God works behind the scenes allowing to rule "whomsoever He will".

Is Daniel 4:17 simply a recounting of what happened to Nebuchadnezzar or does it count as inspired direction from God?

[eccentric_rambler]

Is Daniel 4:17 simply a recounting of what happened to Nebuchadnezzar or does it count as inspired direction from God?

I don't see any direction in the passage, but I do see truth, that God rules in the kingdom of men. Somep people apply this truth to voting. Also see Daniel 2:20b - 21a,

Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:

[Ernie]

I do think we do better to focus on the Kingdom where we have more agency. We do not run That Other Kingdom. But we need to be clear headed about this. Trump is becoming a major figure in American Christianity. Churches are dividing over Trump.

But I'm good with your last paragraph. At my Anabaptist church Trump is practically never mentioned, and there is zero chance of him becoming a major figure in our church, or of us dividing over Trump. I assume you are right about that not being the case in some churches. That is sad, but it's not a new thing. Mainstream churches who involve themselves in politics have always had troubles because of it.

It seems to me that many churches have trouble when they have significant blocs within the church voting Republican and Democrat. It seems that in the past, voting was viewed as such a precious privilege, that churches tolerated different voting blocs within the church.
About 4 years ago I heard that some residential areas in the US were becoming redder or bluer as the minority moved to a different neighborhood. Sounds like a similar thing is now taking place in churches. In the 90's, tolerance was the big word. Today, being aligned with the right party is the big thing.

So Boot, you have been a defender of Christians voting.
Do you see any connection between Christians voting and churches dividing over a political figure?
I'm not seeing anything close to this in the Plain Anabaptist churches. In the Plain Anabaptist churches, we have some people praying Republican, occasionally somebody praying Democrat, but most people try to not pray either one.

In Old Order constituencies where a minority vote, the options are
1. Voting Republican
2. Not voting Republican but praying Republican
3. Praying neither Republican on Democrat.

[Bootstrap]

I do think we do better to focus on the Kingdom where we have more agency. We do not run That Other Kingdom. But we need to be clear headed about this. Trump is becoming a major figure in American Christianity. Churches are dividing over Trump.

But I'm good with your last paragraph. At my Anabaptist church Trump is practically never mentioned, and there is zero chance of him becoming a major figure in our church, or of us dividing over Trump. I assume you are right about that not being the case in some churches. That is sad, but it's not a new thing. Mainstream churches who involve themselves in politics have always had troubles because of it.

It seems to me that many churches have trouble when they have significant blocs within the church voting Republican and Democrat. It seems that in the past, voting was viewed as such a precious privilege, that churches tolerated different voting blocs within the church.
About 4 years ago I heard that some residential areas in the US were becoming redder or bluer as the minority moved to a different neighborhood. Sounds like a similar thing is now taking place in churches. In the 90's, tolerance was the big word. Today, being aligned with the right party is the big thing.

Is that any different in churches than anywhere else in society these days?

I think the root problem is this: politics is the real religion of modern America, people get more engaged about politics than about Jesus, and people build strong identities around politics.

So Boot, you have been a defender of Christians voting.
Do you see any connection between Christians voting and churches dividing over a political figure?

"Any connection"? Sure. But I think the strong identification people have with political movements is much more important than voting or not voting. I think it is possible to vote as an independent. And to me, the thing that is hard in those politicized churches is having a conversation where they want to know if I have the "right" political beliefs. I experience that on both the left and the right, FWIW.

My own church is doing fairly well with this. We can talk and be in relationship and vote for different people or not vote at all because politics is not at our core.

I'm not seeing anything close to this in the Plain Anabaptist churches. In the Plain Anabaptist churches, we have some people praying Republican, occasionally somebody praying Democrat, but most people try to not pray either one.

In Old Order constituencies where a minority vote, the options are
1. Voting Republican
2. Not voting Republican but praying Republican
3. Praying neither Republican or Democrat.

To me, that looks like 1-2 are both pretty Republican. What is the difference between "voting Republican" and "praying Republican"? Don't they reflect a lot of the same mindset? Except I presume people pray a lot more frequently than they vote, so it is a bigger part of their lived experience.

To me, the word "conservative" sometimes seems to conflate two very different things: (1) a conservative approach to the Bible that treats it as our guide in life, (2) identifying with a modern political movement that is far from what the Bible teaches. Liberal Christians have the opposite problem, conflating Jesus with wokeness.

To me, Jesus and the Bible and serving others in love are the real solution here. I see voting as similar to meat offered to idols - not the thing we need to divide over.

[Bootstrap]

Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen Daniel 4:17 mentioned yet.

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men. 

That's Nebuchadnezzar, telling Daniel about his dream. Daniel responds to this later in the same chapter:

24 “This is the interpretation, Your Majesty, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes. 26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, Your Majesty, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue.”

In this case, Daniel was put in place to speak to the king, telling him to do what is right and be kind to the oppressed. And in some ways, that's a little like voting, weighing in on what should happen, while still recognizing that God is in control. In the Old Testament, Joseph, Daniel, and Mordecai all advised kings.

We don't see that in the New Testament in the same way. John the Baptist did rebuke Herod. In Acts, we see Paul witnessing the Gospel to Felix, Festus, and Agrippa. In Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2:13-17, Christians are encouraged to submit to secular authorities (where it does not conflict with Kingdom loyalties). Jesus tells us, "my Kingdom is not of this world".

[barnhart]

I choose not to vote, but I actually raised the topic in Sunday School as something safe to talk about, because we have people who do vote on both sides. I don't like to have forbidden topics that must be suppressed to keep peace. I think it is better to find ways to discuss things we disagree about. I told the class who I would vote for, if I were voting, to model how we can talk about disputed topics without demeaning each other.

[JohnH]

To me, the word "conservative" sometimes seems to conflate two very different things: (1) a conservative approach to the Bible that treats it as our guide in life, (2) identifying with a modern political movement that is far from what the Bible teaches. Liberal Christians have the opposite problem, conflating Jesus with wokeness.

To me, Jesus and the Bible and serving others in love are the real solution here. I see voting as similar to meat offered to idols - not the thing we need to divide over.

Did Ernie ever use the word "conservative"?

[Bootstrap]

To me, the word "conservative" sometimes seems to conflate two very different things: (1) a conservative approach to the Bible that treats it as our guide in life, (2) identifying with a modern political movement that is far from what the Bible teaches. Liberal Christians have the opposite problem, conflating Jesus with wokeness.

To me, Jesus and the Bible and serving others in love are the real solution here. I see voting as similar to meat offered to idols - not the thing we need to divide over.

Did Ernie ever use the word "conservative"?

Not in this thread, but I believe I have seen "conservative" conflated this way in some posts on MN and in a bunch of places among Christians I know. Which is not terribly different from what I see in the "social justice" movement on the left.